Re: [rtcweb] H.261
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Fri, 22 November 2013 16:53 UTC
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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 08:53:23 -0800
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To: bryandonnovan@gmail.com
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.261
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For 1:many with MCU, I don't understand why you wouldn't do #2, i.e. transcode. As stated earlier, the bandwidth costs of using an inefficient codec (which any MCU service will incur) exceed the CPU cost of transcode. On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 4:47 AM, <bryandonnovan@gmail.com> wrote: > Lots of uses will be 1:1 calls, and maybe 30% fallback applies in this > case. My use of WebRTC involves 1:many group calls in the browser with an > MCU. For 1:many, the options are 1) fallback to common codec and 2) > transcode. So, for 1:many we can say that the chance of using the fallback > codec is 100%. Assuming IE and Safari actually ship WebRTC. > > > > On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Steve Kann <stevek@stevek.com> wrote: > >> >> Mo, >> >> I think we all agree that choosing H.264 or VP8 would be better, but it >> is clear that neither option today has consensus. Circumstances could >> change in the future, but it seems that OpenH264 was not enough to change >> that circumstance. >> >> I think that where your scenario might go astray is that users won’t >> associate their poor experience with “WebRTC”, or “that web stuff” — they >> will associate it with the brand of the service which they are using at the >> time. >> >> So, for example, if Facebook builds video chat using WebRTC, and they do >> no transcoding, 30% of users might associate their poor video with >> Facebook, but most of them won’t call it “that web shit” — they would say >> Facebook video sucks. >> >> Of course, Facebook could decide to transcode 30% of the time, in which >> case the user would have a different experience. >> >> Facebook obviously just being used as an example service which might >> implement WebRTC video. >> >> -SteveK >> >> >> >> From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com> >> Date: Thursday, November 21, 2013 at 9:17 PM >> To: Basil Mohamed Gohar <basilgohar@librevideo.org> >> Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org> >> Subject: [rtcweb] H.261 >> >> On 11/21/13 12:48, Basil Mohamed Gohar <basilgohar@librevideo.org> wrote: >> >> Has anyone actually objected to H.261 being the one MTI codec [...] ? >> >> >> Assume this wins and all obey. Chrome does H.261+VP8, Firefox does >> H.261+H.264+VP8, IE does H.261+H.264, Safari does H.261+H.264. According to >> various (incredibly extrapolated, possibly inaccurate and sometimes >> conflicting) sources [1] on who uses what browser, the chance of H.261 >> fallback is a whopping 30% [2]. Not the minor insignificant case some had >> assumed. >> >> How will these users react to H.261 QCIF/CIF compared to what they use >> today, say Skype for example? "This web shit really sucks. I’m going back >> to Skype and never trying it again." Is that the first (and perhaps last) >> impression we want from users that try webrtc? Those arguing crappy video >> is better than no video are ignoring the critical importance of first >> impressions. While some may accept crappy video as usable, many more may be >> permanently turned off and tune out even faster than if they got only >> (good) audio. It’s not as if webrtc is the only game in town. Users have >> options, so it needs to be competitive with competitive technology which >> has already set the bar. >> >> We previously narrowed the options down to H.264 and VP8 for good reasons >> over the course of this excruciatingly long decision. Reopening discarded >> tangents like H.261 does not move us forward as a workgroup, and certainly >> does not move webrtc forward as a technology. >> >> Mo >> >> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers >> [2] H.261 fallback % = 2 x VP8-only% x H.264-only% = 2 x Chrome% x (IE% + >> Safari%) >> >> _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >
- [rtcweb] H.261 Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Steve Kann
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 bryandonnovan
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 bryandonnovan
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Steve Kann
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- [rtcweb] Opinions are fine, bypassing a vote is n… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] Opinions are fine, bypassing a vote … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 bryandonnovan
- Re: [rtcweb] Opinions are fine, bypassing a vote … Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Opinions are fine, bypassing a vote … Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Florian Weimer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Florian Weimer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Opinions are fine, bypassing a vote … cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Hrishikesh Kulkarni
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Hrishikesh Kulkarni
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Engel Nyst
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Randell Jesup