Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of things
cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> Sun, 24 November 2013 19:24 UTC
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Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 14:23:37 -0500
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of things
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While I am in favor of most of your arguments, I disagree that anything we mandate should be forever. It might make sense to maintain backwards compatibility for 5 years or so, but past that point all bets are off (I'd drop the deprecated codecs). Backwards-compatibility should not last forever, especially now that most applications auto-update themselves. Practically speaking that means that WebRTC 2.0 would be backwards compatible with 1.0, but 3.0 would not be. Gili On 23/11/2013 8:34 PM, Ron wrote: > On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:14:45PM +0100, Daniel-Constantin Mierla wrote: >> On 11/23/13 12:46 AM, David Singer wrote: >>> No, I think we all want an MTI codec. But not at any price in terms >>> of quality degradation, and H.261 may be simply off the bottom end. >> This is the last resort if one doesn't have a better alternative. I >> doubt people that really like wide band audio codecs don't use >> mobile phones on 2G/GSM which is quite poor audio experience, but >> when you are on top of mountains or remote locations is the only >> option. > Actually, it's much more than that. This is going to be the codec > of last resort "forever". Think about that. Think hard. I'll wait. > > Unless we are going to resign ourselves to this whole standard being > a bad joke, that will be discarded in a few short years time, with > all the work that has gone into it needing to be repeated *again*, > then this specification is going to vastly outlive any codec that > happens to be flavour of the month today. > > Which means long after H.264 has fallen out of favour and stopped > being included in hardware and "legacy devices", and possibly during > that fun period where people screw up the royalty rates hard to get > people to move on to H.265 or whatever the next revenue raiser will > be, implementations of this standard would still need to carry that > dead baggage. Forever. > > Let's take a quick look at how that might compare: > > > For the RM8 implementation of H.261: > > p64dir$ sloccount . > Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 6,707 > > For x264 (from git a few minutes ago): > > x264$ sloccount . > Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 89,663 > > > One of these has been 'stable' since 1995. The other is still fixing > several bugs a month, even as we speak. > > One of these will still be a standard applicable to the PSTN for as > long as it continues to be around (just like G.711). The other will > be consigned to the dusts of history with H.262 and H.263, probably > well before vinyl records are. > > > H.265 is already out. VP9 is nearly already out. Daala is going > to kick all of their asses like Opus did ... > > These are the codecs that people are _actually_ going to use by the > time this standard is actually completed and well established. > > > So remind me again why we want to take all of the obvious pain today > to mandate a codec that will also be orders of magnitude more pain > in perpetuity? Who wants to still be fixing security bugs in H.264 > in 2020? When people have long since stopped actually using or > testing it. > > Yes, H.261 is not quite as trivial as G.711, but compared to H.264 > it's near enough. It was designed to run on 'computers' made of > snot and matchsticks and rubber bands. If we are going to burden > ourselves with having to carry an obsolete codec forever, whatever > we do -- then maybe there actually is a genuine argument that H.261 > is not just a compromise we'll all hate, but it could in fact be, > when all things are considered, a clearly superior choice in its > own right for the MTI fallback of last resort. > > Shocking I know. > > But I guess that's what happens when you take a step back from > short sighted, short term, "best for me today" considerations > and look at the big picture here. > > > I cordially invite everyone else to do the same :) > > Ron > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
- [rtcweb] H.261 Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Steve Kann
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 bryandonnovan
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 bryandonnovan
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Steve Kann
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- [rtcweb] Opinions are fine, bypassing a vote is n… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] Opinions are fine, bypassing a vote … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 bryandonnovan
- Re: [rtcweb] Opinions are fine, bypassing a vote … Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Opinions are fine, bypassing a vote … Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Florian Weimer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Florian Weimer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Opinions are fine, bypassing a vote … cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 - taking a longer view of thin… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Hrishikesh Kulkarni
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Hrishikesh Kulkarni
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Engel Nyst
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] H.261 Randell Jesup