Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//RE: new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhcpv6-slaac-problem
Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> Thu, 24 October 2013 06:42 UTC
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 15:41:54 +0900
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To: Victor Kuarsingh <victor@jvknet.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "Ole Troan (otroan)" <otroan@cisco.com>, "draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhcpv6-slaac-problem@tools.ietf.org" <draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhcpv6-slaac-problem@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//RE: new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhcpv6-slaac-problem
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On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Victor Kuarsingh <victor@jvknet.com> wrote: > It's quite obvious that in environments like sensor nets, home nets and > other places, SLACC/RAs supply significant value. In other areas, like > an operator access network (edge element addressing), it's a different > case. Operators, such as the one I worked or, would never (rarely?) let > an element auto-configure itself onto the network. > Right - and there's the rub. It seems to me that we have two different ways of configuring things (RA and DHCPv6) that don't differ in functionality but differ in how suitable they are for different environments. One mechanism (RA) is dynamic, self-configuring, serverless and fate-sharing, and the other is static, operator-controlled, and centralized. Operators and enterprises want the one they feel gives them more control and are willing to provision the infrastructure to make it reliable (e.g., centralized configuration repositories; DHCPv6 servers and relays; VRRP so they don't need fate-sharing, etc.). But the one that offers more control falls over in home networks, because the infrastructure to run it is either not available or unreliable: there's nothing anyone can do to make the DHCPv6 server (or the DHCPv6-provided router or DNS server) keep working if the user has unplugged it or tripped over the power cord, and there's nothing that can withdraw a stateful DHCPv6 lease if the original server has been unplugged, because nobody knows the nonce any more. I think we need to accept that neither protocol is sufficient in all environments. We have to realize that DHCPv6 just isn't suited to dynamic, self-organizing environments like home networks. We can keep hacking it with more semantics like unsolicited updates, but at the end of the day we'll simply end up with something that looks like RAs - multicast updates to everyone on the link (equivalent to multicast RAs), configuration requests/replies (equivalent to RS/RA), and so on. Then we'll have to implement DHCPv6 guard to stop rogue servers, and even then there will be no fate-sharing with routing. On the other hand, RA doesn't offer the wealth of different option types that DHCPv6 has, and while it's possible to do fine-grained configuration with unicast RAs, today most RA implementations don't support fine-grained per-client configuration via unicast RA or "RS relaying" to a central server to fetch per-client RA information. I see two possible ways out of this: 1. Decide a clear split between what goes into RA and what goes into DHCPv6, and then stick to it. For example, we could say that configuration information that is required to obtain basic connectivity on a network must be available in RA so it can be dynamically updated and shares fate with routing, and that everything that's not strictly required for the host's connectivity can go into DHCPv6. I don't know if it will be possible to draw a line here. If operators insist that DHCPv6 by itself must be sufficient, then we have no choice but to duplicate information. 2. Attempt to say that RAs and DHCPv6 are simply containers and propose a unified option format so we can have the same options in both of them. I know this was already proposed once and was shot down, but I wasn't around, so I don't know why. (CCing a few people who might know). Cheers, Lorenzo
- [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhcpv6-… fred
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhc… Mikael Abrahamsson
- [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//RE: n… Liubing (Leo)
- [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//RE: n… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Ole Troan (otroan)
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Wuyts Carl
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Wuyts Carl
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Arturo Servin
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Xing Li
- [v6ops] Comments on draft-sun-v6ops-openv6-addres… meng.wei2
- Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-sun-v6ops-openv6-ad… Qiong
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Weil, Jason
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Weil, Jason
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Brian Haberman
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Andrew Yourtchenko
- [v6ops] Link layer lossage [DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hos… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] Link layer lossage [DHCPv6/SLAAC Make… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Ray Hunter
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Weil, Jason
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/SLAAC Make Hosts Confusing-//R… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhc… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhc… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhc… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhc… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhc… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhc… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhc… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-liu-bonica-v6ops-dhc… 神明達哉