Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP
Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> Thu, 11 November 2010 20:57 UTC
Return-Path: <swmike@swm.pp.se>
X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC283A6993; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:57:10 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.649
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QZFc6biwVIKG; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:57:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6853A697D; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:57:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8B98D9C; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:57:39 +0100 (CET)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879F09A; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:57:39 +0100 (CET)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:57:39 +0100
From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Toby Moncaster <toby@moncaster.com>
In-Reply-To: <002a01cb81e1$40e58740$c2b095c0$@com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1011112150370.2639@uplift.swm.pp.se>
References: <3349FECF788C984BB34176D70A51782F106701E2@FRMRSSXCHMBSB3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com> <EAA2CFBF-9434-4E52-A586-7AE5F665A9DF@apple.com> <1104E0EB-CBAD-4001-962F-9D5F8B856D42@nokia.com> <01d801cb8083$8ca250f0$a5e6f2d0$@iridescentnetworks.com> <1E1ED4EA-7CB5-4A86-BD3F-B1F5F72EF456@netflix.com> <C4064AF1C9EC1F40868C033DB94958C7031F0C1F@XMB-RCD-111.cisco.com> <EF84DC37-8CB6-4DB7-85AC-E091D90FF075@apple.com> <C4064AF1C9EC1F40868C033DB94958C7031F0CA2@XMB-RCD-111.cisco.com> <alpine.DEB.1.10.1011102303170.2639@uplift.swm.pp.se> <C4064AF1C9EC1F40868C033DB94958C7031F10D0@XMB-RCD-111.cisco.com> <alpine.DEB.1.10.1011111616310.2639@uplift.swm.pp.se> <C4064AF1C9EC1F40868C033DB94958C7031F1154@XMB-RCD-111.cisco.com> <alpine.DEB.1.10.1011111806430.2639@uplift.swm.pp.se> <3349FECF788C984BB34176D70A51782F16877F3C@FRMRSSXCHMBSB3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com> <alpine.DEB.1.10.1011111957580.2639@uplift.swm.pp.se> <002a01cb81e1$40e58740$c2b095c0$@com>
User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14)
Organization: People's Front Against WWW
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII"; format="flowed"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 08:29:25 -0800
Cc: 'httpstreaming' <httpstreaming@ietf.org>, dispatch@ietf.org, conex@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP
X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list <httpstreaming.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming>, <mailto:httpstreaming-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming>
List-Post: <mailto:httpstreaming@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:httpstreaming-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming>, <mailto:httpstreaming-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:57:10 -0000
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010, Toby Moncaster wrote: > What has gone wrong for ISP business models is that the world has > changed, with streaming and interactive services overtaking bulk > transfer and web browsing. ConEx may at times appear to be operator > centric, but in many places it is the customers that are suffering > because ISPs are forced to use pretty crude mechanisms to try and > control the small percentage of heavy users. Clearly everyone must > benefit if background bulk data transfers move to something like LEDBAT? No, it's only the ISP that benefits. How do you move users to LEDBAT, what's the incentive for any user to move their traffic there? To give them an incentive, you must get off the flat fee model and start to cap monthly traffic that is not LEDBAT. So if you're getting off the flat fee model, why not start charging users per usage or have a monthly cap with tokens to raise the cap or buy additional "credits"? It's non-discrimatory, and it's completely transparent as to what is going on. No secret in-the-black-box mistreatment or prioritization based on L4 information. > There is also the issue of fair allocation of upgrades. Obviously if an > ISP spends a lot of money on increasing their backhaul then this money > has to come from the customers. However as things stand the 20% of > customers grabbing 80% of the network will also grab 80% of this > increased capacity, so they are being even more heavily > cross-subsidised. Clearly cross-subsidy is always going to happen to an > extent so long as you have flat fees for access (even if you put in > tiered fees, there is still cross-subsidy). But this should not be > excessive else customers suffer. With global transit prices in the few dollars per megabit/month, the actual bandwidth cost per user even if they averaged 1 megabit/s/user at peak, is still not a major cost for the service which usually is in the several tens of dollars per month. I don't buy any of the arguments I've seen in the discussion, they're not new, and they're not technical or economical, they're purely political and regulatory when you boil it down to the actual reasons for how things are what they are. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Qin Wu
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Nottingham
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Gunnar Heikkilä
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Gunnar Heikkilä
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Lars Eggert
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Watson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Dirk Kutscher
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Van Caenegem, Tom (Tom)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mcdysan, David E
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP ken carlberg
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Roland Bless
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Toby Moncaster
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Toby Moncaster
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Janet P Gunn
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kevin Mason
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Benjamin Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Benjamin Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Baugher
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Adam Roach
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Woundy, Richard
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks