Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP
"Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com> Thu, 11 November 2010 18:03 UTC
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:03:53 -0600
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Thread-Topic: [conex] [dispatch] [httpstreaming] Q-HTTP
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From: "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>
To: David Singer <singer@apple.com>, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
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Cc: dispatch@ietf.org, httpstreaming <httpstreaming@ietf.org>, conex@ietf.org, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>, "GARCIA ARANDA, JOSEJAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)" <jose_javier.garcia_aranda@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP
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David, Yes, I have to agree that there are several approaches to how packets are handled and they have to be balanced so you don't starve one or another. All packets can't be first in the queue, so some preferences and ordering will take place. There seems to be a gap between what a customer thinks they paid for and what the provider thought they offered at that price. The latter has to make assumptions about traffic volume and mix and plan pricing and costs to come out positive, or they won't be in business very long. But, as most traffic planners know, what you plan for and what traffic you get can vary widely, especially with data. If you want hard guarantees, then you need to have private roads, but that is much more expensive and most folks aren't willing to pay for it. There are certain cases where without the QoS the service just doesn't work. For those, a user may be willing to pay to ensure the service. If the network is engineered properly, then such services only take up a fraction of the network. If it is too large a share, does that mean the QoS mechanism is bad? No, it means the traffic engineering and implementation is bad. So, let us put the blame where it is due. The IETF should be about designing good tools. Not attempting to control bad usage of good tools. My experience personally. My package is 20Mb up and 20 Mb down. What do I normally get is 5Mb up and 10Mb down. Am I upset? No, because the applications generally work. There are tools out there to measure that. If your provider is not even in the ball park of what he is offering, then yeah, you need to switch. Mike -----Original Message----- From: David Singer [mailto:singer@apple.com] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 12:36 PM To: Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: Mike Hammer (hmmr); dispatch@ietf.org; Kathy McEwen; httpstreaming; conex@ietf.org; Ingemar Johansson S; Mark Watson; GARCIA ARANDA, JOSEJAVIER (JOSE JAVIER) Subject: Re: [conex] [dispatch] [httpstreaming] Q-HTTP On Nov 11, 2010, at 18:15 , Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > I don't want QoS guarantees, I want *all* my packets delivered, expediently, regardless if my neighbour is filling up his pipe or not. I have paid for it, and I want it DELIVERED. The postal office doesn't get to choose which of my letters it's ok to delay or throw away, they should just deliver them. Same with my ISP. > It's interesting you say this in the context of real-time media, because I believe a network can give time guarantees ("any packet I deliver on this will be delivered within x ms") or delivery guarantees ("all packets will eventually be delivered") but it's hard (impossible, maybe) to do both. eMail is an assured store-and-forward service. IP packets are not. Most users are unwilling to pay for guaranteed bandwidth availability to an ISP, who in turn would have to pay for guaranteed bandwidth upstream, and so on. Personally, I want my fair share of the shared 'roads' no matter how many others are sharing them, and I expect the 'last mile' personal link to have (at least) the capacity that was sold to me. David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Qin Wu
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Nottingham
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Gunnar Heikkilä
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Gunnar Heikkilä
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Lars Eggert
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Watson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Dirk Kutscher
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Van Caenegem, Tom (Tom)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mcdysan, David E
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP ken carlberg
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Roland Bless
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Toby Moncaster
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Toby Moncaster
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Janet P Gunn
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kevin Mason
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Benjamin Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Benjamin Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Baugher
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Adam Roach
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Woundy, Richard
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks