Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving forward with RFC5321bis SMTP
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Thu, 02 January 2020 18:17 UTC
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Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2020 13:17:12 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, ietf-smtp@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving forward with RFC5321bis SMTP
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--On Thursday, 02 January, 2020 12:14 -0500 Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> wrote: > On 1/2/20 9:56 AM, Hector Santos wrote: > >> If some local sites decide to reject IP-literals based on >> decision that contains bias so be it, they will deal with >> the false positives, but it is not SMTP. > I agree that it doesn't belong in the SMTP spec. But the > cumulative effect of receiving sites' ad hoc and ill-informed > filtering policies is to degrade the utility of Internet email > for everyone. It's not only a problem for the sites that > set the policies. With regard to this and many other issues [1], I think there is a higher-level answer if we know that "many" sites are doing something other than what the spec recommends. Whether we change the spec to follow their practices or retain and clarify the recommendation, it seems to me that we are going to need text, somewhere, that explains our decisions, why we are giving whatever advice we are providing, and why people should follow that advice. That text, which probably belongs in a separate document from RFC531bis, may actually be more important than whatever we put in 5321bis. Absent our providing a persuasive explanation of why people should, or should not, do something, experience, both on the anti-spam side and based on continuing references to 2821, suggests that sites will do whatever they (locally) think best and that some of those decisions will be ill-informed. The same principle applies, IMO, to suggestions that we pull material out of 5321 that is considered obsolete, irrelevant, or not belonging there. Some of the arguments about what should be included ultimately date from the 1980s and involve questions of whether the envelope-message body (with headers) separation arrived at then was correct, whether we should have placed more reliance on message processing rather than transport processing or vice versa, and so on. That even includes such questions as whether RFC 974 was the right solution to that problem and remains the right solution in a world in which the DNS is being optimized for other things and we have strongly discouraged open relays (something else 5321 says little or nothing about) and whether, when we introduced EHLO, we should also have introduced a three-layer envelope [2] and whether we should do that now via a new but strongly-recommended extension. In any event, I believe the discussion we need now is how we get to a WG and how to sort out the details of Barry's suggested approach for moving forward. As just one example, as I read his suggestion, I don't think it allows making major scope changes in 5321bis, especially because, because of the way it is constructed, different parts of that document are sufficiently intertwined that simply adding or removing a substantive sections or two may lead to inconsistencies that would require very careful examination and revisions to sort out [3] [4]. back to lurking. john [1] As I mentioned earlier in another context, I don't have time to follow all of this traffic and my motivation goes down as it becomes more repetitive. I'm unlikely to try to make that time before there is a WG and a consensus-determining mechanism rather than people just stating their positions with great passion and conviction. [2] Somewhat like the X.400 P1/P2/P3 distinction but not necessarily using that model. I note that many of the rough edges associated with the relationship between trace information from xx21 and the header specifications of xx22 and many of the issues with signatures over message headers would be at least considerably simplified by pushing that type of information into an intermediate layer or structure. [3] The unresolved question of whether acceptance of IP address literals is encouraged or mandated by 5321 because references are not exact and apparently-different things are said in different places is probably a good example of a situation we don't want to accidentally make worse. [4] Of course, 2821 and hence 5321 are paste-together jobs rather than a complete rewrite and integration job because, at the time the effort that produced 2821 was underway, we (for some value of "we"( made an explicit decision that, given the complexities and available energy and expertise, we'd be unlikely to be able to take the other approach without introducing errors that would talk a long time to find and sort out. Unless there is evidence that there is more energy now, it is probably still the right decision.
- [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving forwa… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Jeremy Harris
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contiibution to moving f… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contiibution to moving f… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contiibution to moving f… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… S Moonesamy
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Barry Leiba
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Laura Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Laura Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Laura Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Dave Crocker
- [ietf-smtp] It's not about IP-Literals, its about… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Jeremy Harris
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] SMTP client certs John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Richard Clayton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible contribution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Keith Moore
- [ietf-smtp] lounging around Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on IP literals John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Possible cont4ibution to moving f… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] lounging around John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Endless debate on submission auth… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] lounging around John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] lounging around Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] lounging around Dave Crocker