Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Possible OBF question -- I18n)
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Fri, 01 June 2018 18:32 UTC
Return-Path: <nico@cryptonector.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B926126B72 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:32:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k01laL19ONs0 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:32:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (homie-sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F337126B6D for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:32:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1DFC00282A for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:32:17 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=ulUBpxUKccpmHRKDkrC0 Cema2Qs=; b=UYzblpsGt6et4z4yDlWfXG1OH/gS3LRY09jRavo0z8pU2iP4d49g ZV4ZozK0dnEqjaeAPblm7UOYMCacJ3L9NHe2Gg8mBzofhgi4Vr2iXsQ8SE3BuAIv eriwEDE+zl4CnOpgvu/L5dJjctoLNAX3dzvh5BjYn5HnrSVv/Lh3Q+o=
Received: from mail-ua0-f176.google.com (mail-ua0-f176.google.com [209.85.217.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A4A63C002824 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ua0-f176.google.com with SMTP id a5-v6so1792791uao.8 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 11:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwd6ltO7leTxRx09PZCH1fqb9Wbr+yfwJ+Q/0KfcSpVFfZNGLn3z vsVrUYpCtgU3/ag6UXJRUD4IImk1cdfBo4fKHQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKJWLbnrmlMYKxc9CdliwVaPNoIgaQ1r4uur7NTpBSHTPR3+wU6nPwR4GbYkirNf7CJAoMUEoz41fGXGUjwhULI=
X-Received: by 2002:a9f:3242:: with SMTP id y2-v6mr5866865uad.163.1527877936033; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 11:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20180530231127.17198276FEE3@ary.qy> <071E6235FE7B088A2B56A238@PSB> <0093E2CD-670E-47B6-A286-4FDEB140FAD9@frobbit.se> <20180531172228.GF14446@localhost> <383c2404-7beb-63e9-b2b2-e75fd1b174f1@mozilla.com> <20180601041949.GH14446@localhost> <A13FFF23-49BD-459D-8B5B-D3448154EEBC@frobbit.se> <20180601151053.GI14446@localhost> <2584adb9-1622-8b49-7236-ecc7dd374974@mozilla.com> <alpine.OSX.2.21.1806011219340.7621@ary.qy> <712a0de5-dd4e-9fa7-4cfd-fc7a80144805@mozilla.com>
In-Reply-To: <712a0de5-dd4e-9fa7-4cfd-fc7a80144805@mozilla.com>
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2018 13:32:04 -0500
X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: <CAK3OfOigxL6A1eX0ZDAezpKqcS=FAMAzZ3ULkz297qT8pCdzsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK3OfOigxL6A1eX0ZDAezpKqcS=FAMAzZ3ULkz297qT8pCdzsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Possible OBF question -- I18n)
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>
Cc: IETF general list <ietf@ietf.org>, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a33ce3056d98cdc1"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/6p16OG2OCFk9h7bfywx_9J0QNSY>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2018 18:32:20 -0000
On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:42 AM Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote: > On 6/1/18 10:27 AM, John R Levine wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Jun 2018, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >>> Require that documents have I18N Considerations sections, require > review > >>> by an I18N directorate, and you'll see how quickly participants who > used > >>> to not give a damn about I18 will come around, learn what they have to, > >>> and get their I18N work done. Suddenly the I18N directorate will be in > >>> demand. > >> > >> This is worth considering... > > > > I don't think it's a very good idea. It'll just lead to useless > > pro-forma language. > > Quite possibly. We have the IESG and directorates to make sure these sections are not pro forma. > It'd be OK if IESG review were to flag drafts and > > ask whether they should say something about I18N. > > We might want authors to think about internationalization before IESG > review. > > > Like jck, I have to disagree with Nico's assertion that anyone can pick > > up I18N expertise quickly, > > I don't think he said "quickly". :-) I don't either :) > and also jck's comment that if your > > experience is only with European alphabetic languages, you've barely > > scratched the surface. It's remarkably subtle. It needs a particular > > mindset, in much the way that being a crypto expert does. Different > > mindset, though. > > All true. > > To pursue the analogy, AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong) we don't have > that many pure cryptography experts at the IETF. We do have folks who > know enough about crypto to make intelligent, well-informed > recommendations with regard to the use of cryptography in Internet > protocols. Perhaps that's mostly what we need for i18n, too. Whether we > call this "expertise" or "competence" doesn't especially matter. (FWIW, > although like Nico I've learned plenty about i18n and I've even authored > some RFCs on the topic, I do *not* consider myself an expert.) This is my point exactly. We can make do with the participants that we have. And since they are all we have, making do is what wet must do. Of course, we may attract new participants, and we should educate the ones we already have. So let's do that. Nico --
- Possible OBF question -- I18n John C Klensin
- Re: Possible OBF question -- I18n John Levine
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John C Klensin
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John R Levine
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John C Klensin
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… tom p.
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John R Levine
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John C Klensin
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Donald Eastlake
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John C Klensin
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John C Klensin
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Adam Roach
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Larry Masinter
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Patrik Fältström
- RE: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John C Klensin
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Niels ten Oever
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John R Levine
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John R Levine
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John C Klensin
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John C Klensin
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n John R Levine
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… John C Klensin
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n (was: Re: Poss… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Barry Leiba
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Christian Huitema
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Nico Williams
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n tom p.
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n Barry Leiba
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n ned+ietf
- Re: Possible BofF question -- I18n ned+ietf