Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> (The Tao of IETF: A Novice's Guide to the Internet Engineering Task Force) to Informational RFC
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Fri, 08 June 2012 14:16 UTC
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Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 10:16:01 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
Subject: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> (The Tao of IETF: A Novice's Guide to the Internet Engineering Task Force) to Informational RFC
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Sigh. These multiple threads are, IMO, a wonderful exposition of how the IETF can waste a tremendous amount of collective time and energy fine-tuning a document and/or procedures by a very large committee. If nothing else, the process often leads to victory by exhaustion as people just give up, leaving the discussion who have the energy (or, as a colleague would put it, "too much time on their hands". I plead somewhat guilty for getting sucked back in, but I want to make a few suggestions: (1) Can we figure out a way to converge on whether we are editing an RFC-to-be by committee or planning something web-ish (not distinguishing between "web page" and "wiki" for the moment? If the former, then there are several irrelevant threads. If the latter, then there are a lot of useful comments that should be handled in a different way. (2) At one time, one of the key differences between the IETF and other bodies in more or less the same business was that we allowed ourselves considerable flexibility to match how we did things to the situation and our needs while those other bodies had to spend huge amounts of energy getting agreement on the exact way that something should be done before attempting to do it. If we are going down the "web-ish" path and haven't lost that sense of flexibility entirely, I would like to recommend that we perform a "let's try this, see how it works, and then work out specific procedures for the future" experimental engineering process rather than trying to get the details right by committee. In particular, I suggest that, for the initial round of turning the current I-D into something web-ish and establishing a model for handling suggestions and changes, we: Ii) We appoint an Editor (or Editor-in-chief). (ii) Based on precedent, history, a much-better-than-decent job, authorship of the I-D, and an orderly transition from one publication model to the other, we should appoint Paul by acclamation. By that I mean that someone, ideally Russ, gets on the list and says "is there really any objection to appointing Paul... if not, done". That skips, for the present, wasting more time figuring out who makes the appointment, whose approval is needed, whether we need a whole process (e.g., of volunteers, lists and comments) similar to how we handle IAOC and ISOC BoT appointments, and a whole series of other ways in which we could waste a lot of time and then get the same result. (iii) Let's give the Editor six or nine months of discretion and experimental time about formats (let's at least start with a controlled list of people who can make changes until we have a document in place and a bit of experience -- I see no substantive difference between a controlled-authorship Wiki and a controlled-authorship web page other than the tools used although we could spend lots of time debating the non-substantive differences), editorial board composition, how to solicit and receive input, etc. We encourage the editor to consult with the IESG to the extent to which the IESG (or some IESG-chosen subcommittee) is inclined to be involved. (iv) At the end of that period, we see if we can find an efficient way to examine the experience, draw ideas together, and figure out what we really want to do for the long term and what procedures are needed to do it. I think I just said "BOF in Atlanta or Orlando" rather than "mail storm on the IETF list", but, if we need to do a mail storm, let's at least have some experience and a web-based document on which to focus, rather than trying to have editorial, procedural, organizational, and format suggestions all mixed up with each other. If we all really have this many spare cycles, perhaps many of them would be better spent getting the document (page, wiki,...) right rather than tuning procedures. Perhaps some of them might even be better invested in protocol specification. And, on that note, I'm going to go try to spend a little time on a neglected WG. best, john
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Eliot Lear
- Mission statement [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-… Brian E Carpenter
- Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Dave Crocker
- ICANN relationship [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Dave Crocker
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Dave Crocker
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … SM
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Klaas Wierenga
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Simon Perreault
- Re: Mission statement [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoff… John C Klensin
- Re: Mission statement [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoff… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … John C Klensin
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Fred Baker
- Re: Mission statement [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoff… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Brian E Carpenter
- IANA [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Melinda Shore
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Martin Rex
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Yoav Nir
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Joel jaeggli
- Making the Tao a web page Paul Hoffman
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Nick Hilliard
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Fadi Mohsen
- Re: Making the Tao a web page John C Klensin
- Re: Making the Tao a web page SM
- RE: Making the Tao a web page GT RAMIREZ, Medel G.
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… John Levine
- Re: IANA [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Thierry Moreau
- Re: IANA [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Fred Baker
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call:<draft-hof… t.p.
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call:<draft-hof… Randy Bush
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call:<draft-hof… Yoav Nir
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Thomas Nadeau
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Nick Hilliard
- Re: IANA [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… David Conrad
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Russ Housley
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Eric Burger
- Re: Making the Tao a web page John C Klensin
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Melinda Shore
- Re: Making the Tao a web page SM
- Re: Making the Tao a web page John C Klensin
- Re: Making the Tao a web page John C Klensin
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Lixia Zhang
- Re: Making the Tao a web page SM
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Dave Crocker
- Re: Making the Tao a web page SM
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Lucy Lynch
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Bradner, Scott
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Bradner, Scott
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Bradner, Scott
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Glen Zorn
- [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15… Glen Zorn
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Randy Bush
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Glen Zorn
- RE: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… John Levine
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … John C Klensin