Clarifying harm to DNS (was: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages_
Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com> Thu, 13 November 2008 20:21 UTC
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:21:50 -0500
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
To: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Clarifying harm to DNS (was: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages_
Message-ID: <20081113202150.GT76118@shinkuro.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0811121942450.12067-100000@egate.xpasc.com> <20081113112302.38928.qmail@simone.iecc.com> <e0c581530811130740g1db5cbfehbcdad361660bf48b@mail.gmail.com> <491C5339.8090801@dcrocker.net> <20081113163833.GN76118@shinkuro.com> <491C699B.4000702@nortel.com> <20081113180841.GO76118@shinkuro.com> <491C711C.3030605@leisi.net> <20081113183919.GR76118@shinkuro.com> <491C7A2B.3030503@leisi.net>
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On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 08:04:11PM +0100, Matthias Leisi wrote: > And this counts as "fairly serious damage to the DNS protocol"? This > seems like a *tiny* bit exaggerated. The DNS is a distributed, loosely-coherent database of typed data. If we start throwing away the types, it seems like pretty serious damage to me. When my DNS client gets back an A record from what appears to be a DNS server answering DNS queries according to the standard DNS protocol, it ought to be able to rely on the the A record containing a host address, because that's what an A record is defined as containing (by RFC 1035). But the DNSxL document describes using A records such that that the RDATA contains something that looks like a host address, _but that isn't_. There's no way to tell that such is the case except by knowing the context of the query and the contents of the response. What this does is make the answer different _in kind_ depending on its content. Note that this isn't like the (otherwise lamentable) example of TXT records being used as protocol elements -- they at least were always defined as being nothing more strongly typed than text strings. If the "protocol" as described in the -dnsbl- draft does not do violence to the DNS protocol, then I guess I don't know what would. I thought this argument was plain in the original note Olafur and I sent, but I gather technical comments of this nature might have been lost in the fog (well, flames, in this case) of war. I hope the above clarifies. I should observe that I'm not so naive as to suppose the existing use is going to disappear any time soon. That's a poor reason, in my opinion, for turning a bad use into a "standard" of any kind, when we can instead document the existing (bad) use for everyone's information, and suggest an alternative that accomplishes the same goal without causing the same harm. If that's not the point of an interoperability-focussed network standards organization, I guess I also don't know what we're doing here. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Re: several messages der Mouse
- Re: several messages David Morris
- Re: several messages Dean Anderson
- Re: several messages Randy Presuhn
- Re: several messages David Morris
- Re: several messages Matthias Leisi
- Re: several messages Steve Linford
- Re: several messages Peter Dambier
- Re: several messages Steve Linford
- Re: several messages Keith Moore
- Re: several messages der Mouse
- Re: several messages Chris Lewis
- Re: several messages Mark Andrews
- Re: several messages der Mouse
- Re: several messages Chris Lewis
- Re: several messages David Romerstein
- Re: several messages Randy Presuhn
- Re: several messages Chris Lewis
- Re: several messages David Romerstein
- Re: several messages David Romerstein
- Re: several messages Keith Moore
- Re: several messages Chris Lewis
- Re: several messages Al Iverson
- More anti-spam (was: Re: several messages) John C Klensin
- RE: several messages michael.dillon
- Re: several messages Matthias Leisi
- Re: several messages Mark Andrews
- Re: several messages David Morris
- Re: several messages Al Iverson
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages John Levine
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Jim Hill
- Re: several messages John C Klensin
- Re: several messages Al Iverson
- RE: several messages Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Matthias Leisi
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Al Iverson
- RE: several messages Anthony Purcell
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Dave CROCKER
- Re: several messages der Mouse
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Andrew Sullivan
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages David Romerstein
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Jim Hill
- Re: several messages Chris Lewis
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Chris Lewis
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages John C Klensin
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Dave CROCKER
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Tony Finch
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Andrew Sullivan
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages John C Klensin
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Matthias Leisi
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Al Iverson
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Andrew Sullivan
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages John C Klensin
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Ted Hardie
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Matthias Leisi
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Ted Hardie
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Tony Finch
- Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperative … Ted Hardie
- Clarifying harm to DNS (was: uncooperative DNSBLs… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… Ted Hardie
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… Steve Linford
- RE: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Peter Dambier
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages David Romerstein
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Peter Dambier
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Keith Moore
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Chris Lewis
- RE: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… michael.dillon
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… Steve Linford
- RE: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… michael.dillon
- Re: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… Tony Finch
- Re: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… John Levine
- RE: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… Hardie, Ted
- RE: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… Tony Finch
- Re: several messages Rich Kulawiec
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, was several messages Rich Kulawiec
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… Al Iverson
- Re: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… Ted Hardie
- RE: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… Ted Hardie
- Re: several messages John C Klensin
- Re: several messages Al Iverson
- Re: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… John L
- RE: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… michael.dillon
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… Al Iverson
- RE: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… michael.dillon
- Re: several messages John C Klensin
- Re: several messages Chris Lewis
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… Keith Moore
- Re: several messages Al Iverson
- RE: several messages michael.dillon
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… Al Iverson
- Re: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… Ted Hardie
- Re: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… Douglas Otis
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… Theodore Tso
- Re: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… Theodore Tso
- Re: uncooperative DNSBLs, IETF misinformation (wa… Chris Lewis
- Re: more bad ideas, was uncooperative DNSBLs, was… John Levine
- Re: more bad ideas, was uncooperative DNSBLs, was… Chris Lewis
- Re: Context specific semantics was Re: uncooperat… John L
- Detecting and disabling bad DNSBLs Peter Dambier
- Re: Detecting and disabling bad DNSBLs Steve Linford
- Re: several messages Pekka Savola
- Re: more bad ideas, was uncooperative DNSBLs, was… Keith Moore
- Re: several messages Rich Kulawiec
- Is USA qualified for 2.3 of draft-palet-ietf-meet… YAO
- RE: [73attendees] Is USA qualified for 2.3 ofdraf… Song Haibin
- Re: several messages Tom.Petch
- Re: [73attendees] Is USA qualified for 2.3 of dra… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [73attendees] Is USA qualified for 2.3 of dra… james woodyatt
- Re: several messages John C Klensin