Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis
"Frank Ellermann" <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Wed, 26 March 2008 20:18 UTC
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From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>
Subject: Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:53:17 +0100
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Keith Moore wrote: > you're assuming lots of conditions there that don't apply > in the general case... The cases involving MX queries are not unusual, a good part of 2821bis explains how this works. MTAs know if they are an inbound "border MTA" or not depending on the client. > e.g. single-hop internal routing for inbound mail and yet > the MTA can't detect that the mail is nondeliverable until > after it has accepted it If it has no SPF PASS or a similar indication that sending an NDR "to the originator of the undeliverable mail (as indicated by the reverse-path)" should work it is forced to violate a MUST in 2821 or 2821bis. NDRs are not OPTIONAL. > one way to look at it is that the border for inbound mail > may be different than the border for outbound mail. Most likely it is, but the admins are supposed to know what their outbound MTAs can do. If they can't send NDRs to XXX they better don't accept mail from XXX, otherwise they run into problems with the MUST. It would also affect users starting an RFC 3834 mailbot, the envelope sender address is supposed to work for auto-replies. And when it works this should be the originator, but 2821bis does not try to solve that closely related problem. Similar for all other RFCs using the envelope sender address, DSNs, MDNs, etc. (I'm not up to date with Lemonade and Sieve, but e.g. the Sieve vacation I-D or RFC is based on RFC 3834) > often, the inbound MTA for a domain lacks reliable knowledge > of whether either the sender or recipient address is actually > valid. it appears that you would have the inbound MTA drop > mail based on a very dubious presumption. NAK, I think it should REJECT mail if it has no clue what to do with it if all else fails. Your proposal, accept and pray, could result in dropped mails silently vanishing in /dev/null, or what is known as "misdirected bounces". > you would rather cause additional delivery failures of subject > messages than to risk the failure of nondelivery reports. For legit mail rejected at the border the sender then at least knows that the mail bounced, and "can make another plan", as EAI nicely put it. Dropped legit mail "accepted on probation" are a black hole from the sender's POV, that's bad. For what we are discussing here we can ignore all details of misdirected vs. good bounces, the assumption was that an IPv4 MRN cannot reach the IPv6 MON. Even an SPF PASS cannot help in this case, it is an IP problem "below" SMTP. > most operators, I think, would have the opposite preference. Operators still thinking that "accept on probation" is a good strategy somehow missed Y2K and that 90% of mails are spam. Or they always considered NDRs as OPTIONAL, but then they are not reading RFC 2821 or 2821bis. > regardless of what 2821 says, I don't think your reading of > it is justified. Well, I don't think NDRs are OPTIONAL, and I want to get NDRs if legit mail from me does not make it. If that's unjustified what is ? Publishing 2821bis as experimental is no option :-) >> My definition of IPv4-only is that there is no other route. > that's a pretty useless definition because the case would > not exist in practice until IPv6 were ubiquitous. Bill's IPv6-only AAAA example.com triggered the discussion, he expressly wanted no MX, there is no IPv4 MTA accepting NDRs or other replies to any@example.com address. > there's always the possibility for an IPv6-only domain to > contract with an MTA sited on both v4 and v6 to relay > outgoing mail. it would be insane for an IPv6-only domain > that wanted to send and receive mail to not have such an > arrangement. Insane or not, it's what Bill wanted. Likewise IPv4 receivers could try to add IPv6 to their network, but the interesting scenario is where that's not the case. > if we were to take your presumption to its logical conclusion, > every inbound MTA should just reject all mail - since it can > never be 100% certain of being able to either deliver the > message or send an NDN. It needs to be confident that it can do what the MUST in 2821bis says. 100% certain is too harsh, but 2821bis has clear ideas about "frivolous": | it is accepting responsibility for delivering or relaying the | message. It must take this responsibility seriously. It | MUST NOT lose the message for frivolous reasons, such as | because the host later crashes or because of a predictable | resource shortage. Or because IPv4-only to IPv6-only cannot work to report errors. Frank _______________________________________________ IETF mailing list IETF@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Hollenbeck, Scott
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Ned Freed
- Lists and aliases (Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-r… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Pete Resnick
- Re: Lists and aliases (Re: Last Call: draft-klens… Ned Freed
- Re: Lists and aliases (Re: Last Call: draft-klens… Tony Finch
- Re: Lists and aliases (Re: Last Call: draft-klens… Ned Freed
- Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple Mail … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis (Simple M… Pekka Savola
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Douglas Otis
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Douglas Otis
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John Leslie
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Douglas Otis
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Bill Manning
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Bill Manning
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Bill Manning
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Willie Gillespie
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Markku Savela
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis SM
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Bill Manning
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis SM
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis SM
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Pekka Savola
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Bill Manning
- Implicit MX and A RRs (was: Re: Last Call: draft-… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Implicit MX and A RRs Tony Hansen
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John Levine
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John Levine
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Eliot Lear
- RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Tony Hain
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Willie Gillespie
- IPv6 incentive? RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Jim Fenton
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis David Conrad
- RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Tony Hain
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Tony Hain
- RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Implicit MX and A RRs John C Klensin
- Re: Implicit MX and A RRs Matti Aarnio
- RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Mark Andrews
- Re: Implicit MX and A RRs Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Joe Abley
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis David Morris
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Implicit MX and A RRs Keith Moore
- RE: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis michael.dillon
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Douglas Otis
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Implicit MX and A RRs Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Pekka Savola
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Pekka Savola
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Theodore Tso
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John Levine
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis SM
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis SM
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John Levine
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis David Morris
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Bill Manning
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Tony Hansen
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Lisa Dusseault
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Douglas Otis
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Hector Santos
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Paul Smith
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Tom.Petch
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Hector Santos
- Re: Last Call: draft-klensin-rfc2821bis: closing … Robert A. Rosenberg