Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext
Mark Davis ☕ <mark@macchiato.com> Thu, 07 July 2011 19:58 UTC
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From: Mark Davis ☕ <mark@macchiato.com>
To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" <ltru@ietf.org>, "ietf-languages@alvestrand.no" <ietf-languages@alvestrand.no>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext
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It's still in discussion, so feedback is welcome. (I'd thought you were on LTRU...) Mark *— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —* On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 08:29, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>wrote: > I was not aware of the discussion on LTRU. When will it be reviewed by > IESG? What is the action being requested of IESG / what’s the status of this > draft?**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Peter**** > > ** ** > > *From:* ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no [mailto: > ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no] *On Behalf Of *Pete Resnick > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 06, 2011 4:49 PM > *To:* ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > *Subject:* Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext**** > > ** ** > > Most of the people on the ietf-languages list are probably on the > ltru@ietf.org list as well, but I wanted to confirm that everyone got a > chance to review this before it proceeded to the IESG. Please have a look at > the ltru archive > <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/maillist.html><http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/maillist.html>and send any comments to the > ltru@ietf.org list since that's where discussion seems to be taking place. > > Thanks. > > pr > > -------- Original Message -------- **** > > *Subject: * > > [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext**** > > *Date: * > > Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:00:47 -0700**** > > *From: * > > Mark Davis ☕ <mark@macchiato.com> <mark@macchiato.com>**** > > *To: * > > Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>**** > > *CC: * > > LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> <ltru@ietf.org>, <court@infiauto.com><court@infiauto.com> > **** > > > > A new draft posted at > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-davis-t-langtag-ext-01 > **** > > ** ** > > Martin, we tried to address your concerns; please take a look and let us > know what you think.**** > > ** ** > > Mark**** > > *— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —* > > **** > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 09:00, Mark Davis ☕ <mark@macchiato.com> wrote:*** > * > > Those are good issues; thanks for raising them and starting the discussion. > Comments below. > **** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > Mark**** > > *— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —***** > > > > **** > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 23:39, "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> > wrote:**** > > Hello Mark, others, > > Overall comment: > The idea to reuse language tags to indicate transliteration/transcription > source, and to add some additional tags to distinguish methods seems to be > reasonable and sound. > > The description of the structure of the allowed subtags and of the > responsibility split between IETF (this draft) and UTC (UTS 35) looks quite > messy to me, and should be cleaned up. I'd personally prefer that UTS 35 (or > whatever else on the Unicode side) only define the <mechanism> part (after > the m0 subtag).**** > > ** ** > > That would be my preference as well (can't speak for my coauthors).**** > > ** ** > > We patterned it this way following what ended up being accepted for the > -u- extension. That is, the spec is in UTS35, but there is a summary here. > But of course, there are many ways to do it. And maybe this summary is too > detailed, at least for the mechanism part, and we could just have it in > UTS35.**** > > ** ** > > We considered a number of alternatives:**** > > - We could define everything after -t- to be the source language, and > everything after -m- to be the mechanism. But that burns 2 extension > letters, just one.**** > - We also considered having everything in the -u extension, for which > we already have the structure set up. However, that would force us to have > artificial source subtags like 'en0' instead of 'en', because the -u- > extension wouldn't allow the 2-letter subtags (it already defines a use for > them).**** > - We could also have -t- be just the source, and define the mechanism > in -u-, also easy. But we felt it would be better to have everything under > one extension.**** > > ** ** > > > > > Detailled comments: > > "In addition, it may also be important to > specify a particular specification for the transformation.": Too much > 'spec' in one sentence.**** > > ** ** > > ok**** > > **** > > > "For example, if one is transcribing the names of Italian or Russian > cities on a map for Japanese users, each name will need to be > transliterated into katakana using rules appropriate for the source > language and target languages.": "source languages and target language"? > **** > > ** ** > > yes**** > > **** > > > BCP47 required information: The first three paragraphs should move to the > introduction.**** > > ** ** > > Other authors, what do you think?**** > > **** > > > "followed by a sequence of subtags that would form a language tag": Here > and in general: Don't use 'would'.**** > > ** ** > > Grammatically, it is that the sequence of subtags *would* form a language > subtag if they *were* separated out. They are not actually a language tag, > because they occur in the middle of another language subtag. How would you > like that to be phrased?**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > >>>> > The structure of 't' subtags is determined by the Unicode CLDR > Technical Committee, in accordance with the policies and procedures > in http://www.unicode.org/consortium/tc-procedures.html, and subject > to the Unicode Consortium Policies on > http://www.unicode.org/policies/policies.html. > >>>> > > > The following paragraph is also difficult to understand. I wouldn't know > exactly what falls on what side. I think one major reason is that we are > treading new ground here, it's the first time we have a singleton definition > that allows reuse of language tags (with a few restrictions) as well as > intends to define its own extensions.**** > > ** ** > > These were both patterned after what was used for the -u- extension. We can > take a look at them to try to clarify.**** > > ** ** > > **** > > > >>>> > Changes that can be made by successive versions of LDML [UTS35] by > the Unicode Consortium without requiring a new RFC include the > allocation of new subtags for use after the 't' extension. A new RFC > would be required for material changes to an existing 't' subtag, or > an incompatible change to the overall syntactic structure of the 't' > extension; however, such a change would be contrary to the policies > of the Unicode Consortium, and thus is not anticipated. > >>>> > > 2.1 Summary: There seems to be quite some overlap between the part of > section 2 before the 2.1 heading. > > > One question I would have as a linguistic researcher is: How much effort > and time is involved in getting a 'mechanism' approved? If such 'mechanisms' > are e.g. rejected with arguments like "if we accept it, then everybody has > to implement it" or so, then I would see that as a problem.**** > > ** ** > > Good point. I'll propose some text.**** > > **** > > > So much for the moment. > > > Regards, Martin. **** > > > > > On 2011/06/18 6:07, Mark Davis ☕ wrote:**** > > Yoshito, Addison, and I had had an action for a while now from the CLDR > committee to submit a draft for a an extension. Rather than go through all > the problems in the falk draft, we put together an alternative approach, > leveraging the work we already did for the -u- extension. > > It just got posted at > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-davis-t-langtag-ext-00 > > Courtney, I think this provides a superset of the functionality that you > are > interested in. Perhaps you can read it over, and we can add you as an > author > of the next version of this draft instead of having the two competing > proposals. > > Mark > > *— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —* > > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 10:50, Randy Presuhn > <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>wrote:**** > > Hi - > > I started out with an off-list response, but I figure this is > something worth sending to the list. > > Off-list, a contributor asked: > > ...**** > > I'd love to see your input. I'd like to make sure I understand > all the concerns. Is there any way you could forward this to the list?**** > > > My response: > > Sorry, already deleted. As I recall, the main concerns were > > (1) there already *is* support for identifying orthographies > (remember German?) > (2) the I-D seems to assume that transliterations always result > in "Latin" (previous discussion on LTRU included transliterations > to Cyrillic and Hangul, among others) > (3) the "original orthography" is irrelevant for the transliteration > systems I've been able to think of. (At the same time, some > transliteration systems are quite "lossy" and some don't do > "round trip" very well.) Consider also the transliteration of > material > which was originally in audio form... > (4) The draft doesn't clearly distinguish "orthography" from > "transliteration". > This may be because the boundary between the two can be fuzzy, but > even > that is an issue that should be addressed. > (5) How this fits in with *transcription* systems (e.g. IPA) should be > addressed. The boundary gets fuzzy with orthographies that are > equivalent > to phonemic representations of the language. (e.g., Pinyin for > Mandarin) > (6) The proposed singleton usage appears broken and unnecessary. > > Or something like that. I may have forgotten something here, or, in the > process of reconstruction, thought of something I missed the first time. > > Randy**** > > ** ** > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > >
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Pete Resnick
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Pete Resnick
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Roozbeh Pournader
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Roozbeh Pournader
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Roozbeh Pournader
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Kent Karlsson
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext doug
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Broome, Karen
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Kent Karlsson
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Felix Sasaki
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Jukka K. Korpela
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Randy Presuhn
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Avram Lyon
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Gordon P. Hemsley
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext yoshito_umaoka
- [Ltru] Fw: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext yoshito_umaoka
- Re: [Ltru] Fw: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕