Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi
Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> Fri, 16 March 2007 23:46 UTC
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:46:22 -0700
From: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
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To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi
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What extlangs buys us is: for languages that are already tagged, the current primary language subtags remain consistently the primary language subtag of choice. You might add additional subtags, but you don't have to retag all of your content. Thus "zh-Hans-CN" is still valid. You would not (could not) retag with "cmn-Hans-CN". You might retag with "zh-cmn-Hans-CN", but this interferes less drastically with matching than outright change of the primary subtag. What we want are consistent choices for language tags. One alternative would be to allow both "zh-cmn" and "cmn". Users would have to be careful to use these consistently in their content and range selection. Another alternative would be to forget extlang altogether and permit *either* "zh" *or* "cmn" but not both in the same tag (except by grandfathering). This frees the extlang up for other, nefarious, purposes. My surmise is that macro-languages are a one-time event: "discovery" of future macro-languages will mostly be prohibited by rule (since most of the languages will already have codes in the "primary" position when they become part of a macro-language collection). If my surmise is correct, we could ban future extlang additions and use the remainder of that namespace for (well) nefarious purposes. The only exception to my surmise would be: a language not previously given a code that is part of an existing macro-language. A language that isn't currently a macro-language that receives a new sublanguage would be a problem (all of the macro-languages are, by definition, one-to-many mappings). That is, the sub languages always travel in (at least) pairs. Does that make sense? Addison Mark Davis wrote: > I must not be clearly stating my point. Let me try again. > > I'm getting at the fundamental reasoning behind extlang at all. I'm not > arguing that we should use different DATA than ISO 639-3 in order to > decide what are extlangs and what are not. What I'm saying is: why do we > need the extlang construction at all? Why do we need to have zh-cmn > instead of just cmn? > > > Worst case we have some languages that could have been extlangs that > become primary language subtags instead. > > That is: Why don't we simply have *all* languages be primary language > subtags instead of extlangs? What do extlangs buy us, that we need the > complication that they introduce? > > Mark > > On 3/16/07, *Addison Phillips* <addison@yahoo-inc.com > <mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com>> wrote: > > > > Mark Davis wrote: > > Yes, and it concerns me that we are baking in a particular view > of the > > world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in > > conjunction with others (eg pmu can only be used with lah-pmu). Now > > maybe I'm missing something, can you articulate the reasons why > we must > > use lah-pmu (for example) instead of just pmu? > > > > The reasons are all procedural: any ISO 639-3 code that is contained by > a macro-language and is not previously encoded by ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2 > must be an extlang whose Prefix is the macro-language code. > > This allows us to piggyback on ISO 639-3's work in this area to create > tags such as zh-cmn and avoid naked 'cmn' language tags without having, > ourselves, to squint at the lists and make separate, possibly > unreasonable, decisions. > > One possible way to avoid this would be to limit the "automatic" > creation of mappings to those languages that have ISO 639-1 codes. This > greatly limits the impact. The problem here is that it is arbitrary (why > Aymara and not Baluchi? why Cree and not Delaware?) > > To respond to Doug's point, I think that we are not *forced* to delay > RFC 4646bis or even 4645bis's appearance. What we need are clear rules > for the incorporation of ISO 639-3 into the registry scheme. This > *could* take the form of a Big Bang insertion. But it would > certainly be > valid to insert only the language (and not the extlang) codes initially > or to include only the finalized and stable extlang codes when they are > mature---on a different day. > > I would suggest that a mechanism for doing this would be to take each > macro-language, as a collection, and vet the contents with the RA and > on-list with ietf-languages before doing an insert. The Chinese and > Arabic collections probably get in straight-away. Lahnda's subtags (by > way of example) could wait---and no one is hurt by that delay. The only > hurt is getting the mapping wrong. Worst case we have some languages > that could have been extlangs that become primary language subtags > instead. > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > > > > -- > Mark -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
- [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Don Osborn
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi John Cowan
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Peter Constable
- [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Doug Ewell
- RE: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Peter Constable
- [Ltru] Re: [everson@evertype.com: The Language Su… Doug Ewell
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: [everson@evertype.com: The Languag… Addison Phillips
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Peter Constable
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Sukhjinder Sidhu
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Sarmad Hussain, Dr.
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi sukhjinder_sidhu
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi sukhjinder_sidhu
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi sukhjinder_sidhu
- Fwd: [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis
- [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Punjabi Abbas Malik
- [Ltru] Re: Punjabi John Cowan
- [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) Frank Ellermann
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi sukhjinder_sidhu
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Addison Phillips
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Addison Phillips
- RE: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Mark Davis
- RE: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Peter Constable
- [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Doug Ewell
- RE: [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) Don Osborn
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Frank Ellermann
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Mark Davis
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Addison Phillips
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Addison Phillips
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang GerardM
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Don Osborn
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Stephane Bortzmeyer
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Marion Gunn
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Addison Phillips
- VS: [Ltru] Re: extlang Erkki I. Kolehmainen
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Addison Phillips