[saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards
Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> Wed, 11 December 2024 23:28 UTC
Return-Path: <simon@josefsson.org>
X-Original-To: saag@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: saag@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B84C1CAE67; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 15:28:20 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.408
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.408 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=josefsson.org header.b="zWAPg0IV"; dkim=pass (2736-bit key) header.d=josefsson.org header.b="nfQx2hFc"
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aY8GnrJlidQm; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 15:28:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from uggla.sjd.se (uggla.sjd.se [IPv6:2001:9b1:8633::107]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99EF6C18DBBF; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 15:28:13 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=josefsson.org; s=ed2303; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To :Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding :Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=5SjkIVpOWx7gK+ccs0W/cJyrXjlfcpsLCLPi84y2neg=; t=1733959689; x=1735169289; b=zWAPg0IVVb6kilJtdKltN6nCPsWFMw/c8tgtoGurW/kTgrpiapIfZYYHKl5QrcYXbhK1r9c2r8I YA1jGpn52Bw==;
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=josefsson.org; s=rsa2303; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=5SjkIVpOWx7gK+ccs0W/cJyrXjlfcpsLCLPi84y2neg=; t=1733959689; x=1735169289; b=nfQx2hFc2yoscRIGnqj3ryHPHAtQkk/6APjEk/eFQZMhQFPFN5+2BuajK5gRcP5uQ604vYOdvQG bzAMJyIamdUADiNZorVwtVw8JAbvSLuWaCL5esDbS6TzTc8ZYF/YWwih/Ke5fLPfSCd4tMF6o5ncs 6dZA132IRRNWpbTJF+9Tuv+Utx/qIY6mM/T4CZtL8czrcuU/tFS4oEPrgHvqfetfZOPe63605DVzo +kMSzFg6MdGNdDW1+9BDmCcnppUyWTemrb0+pVMEEmxadtcTM9oBjMr6WlxtxGzVI2kzSTbKouTBp 1O//MY+W09VH0zqMSfsheWMMH2PNAfXxYPqGzHD1P4ne+KDSq2yeyJOni2tYgxyXSNES7AKqk79Vu b3Ttp30BlZn9BvZXfpnlcFJhrZsqjYPZmgTp18X0rjXHYggfOzBLL4aD1PKcj18kxV0nE8PIc;
Received: from h-178-174-130-130.a498.priv.bahnhof.se ([178.174.130.130]:46262 helo=kaka) by uggla.sjd.se with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from <simon@josefsson.org>) id 1tLW7g-000pe3-SP; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 23:28:04 +0000
From: Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
To: Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>
References: <BE95E617-C929-43BA-BB40-41E189A8158B@akamai.com> <3029EB03-6E7A-47CB-9682-F511CB51EE17@akamai.com> <10065.1732826193@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <CACsn0cmWVeFdJ3dzMj5SV4XpJF4rssULtfQ1moeefoq-Evhk=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAGL5yWb=tLvMOYFKT3ffVbcy7BAD=i4B0VHEUdkvwRvZ3X3Bsw@mail.gmail.com> <m2mshh4v8l.wl-randy@psg.com> <CABcZeBMjxNbBMYU2p3_a8-5VCExgmY-7XLof7die05YOEX-38A@mail.gmail.com> <70419651-6443-4393-9ca1-8a1c98a68db0@cs.tcd.ie> <CABcZeBNtBRxi5zSf9OvUip2AtyVD6Wt9+kQESuUzo-=Kur9+ZQ@mail.gmail.com> <fac981d9-2fe9-4a84-8af1-845acd72af58@cs.tcd.ie> <14124.1733073164@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <d52ee080-814b-46fd-9e0f-41349941eeac@cs.tcd.ie> <GVXPR07MB9678DF2C14EA44B28C3DA372893D2@GVXPR07MB9678.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <F304B6BA-6969-4C62-A217-88E76F82CDC2@tzi.org> <C74E3E9D-E892-48B4-87BE-CD634081AA23@akamai.com> <030FD3D1-8BC9-4C92-84EE-9CD18F451E73@tzi.org> <5249aa71-52c2-4f20-b2ae-62eaf75c82b7@lear.ch> <F54D57D6-F1DF-43A5-A437-7CD2AA4B181A@akamai.com> <6b7ee63e-f0a9-43f1-bfbd-3f305306fc59@gmail.com> <FAA4A07B-203A-47C9-9997-DFE8489EEAB0@akamai.com> <C9478BFB-319E-4C50-840F-768DB0B94243@deployingradius.com>
OpenPGP: id=B1D2BD1375BECB784CF4F8C4D73CF638C53C06BE; url=https://josefsson.org/key-20190320.txt
X-Hashcash: 1:23:241211:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com::Vabgfmx/d1D9yE+h:P9B
X-Hashcash: 1:23:241211:aland@deployingradius.com::naUjQgrY9zVlbG7g:8/ZI
X-Hashcash: 1:23:241211:saag@ietf.org::9vBZ+/X2InlLih/4:L7xZ
X-Hashcash: 1:23:241211:rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org::ZdjkhaKDuPNxXQYy:QtR1
X-Hashcash: 1:23:241211:rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org::E941O9ncHmpAHT/o:06SaP
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2024 00:28:17 +0100
In-Reply-To: <C9478BFB-319E-4C50-840F-768DB0B94243@deployingradius.com> (Alan DeKok's message of "Wed, 11 Dec 2024 18:04:49 -0500")
Message-ID: <87ed2dajfy.fsf@kaka.sjd.se>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"
Message-ID-Hash: MFAC6LZUHJPUK2TRHZWAHTKL576OY4WO
X-Message-ID-Hash: MFAC6LZUHJPUK2TRHZWAHTKL576OY4WO
X-MailFrom: simon@josefsson.org
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-saag.ietf.org-0; header-match-saag.ietf.org-1; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards
List-Id: Security Area Advisory Group <saag.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/saag/cbF7MrMzfkMmabi0Txwkc1zQZl0>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/saag>
List-Help: <mailto:saag-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:saag-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:saag@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:saag-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:saag-leave@ietf.org>
Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com> writes: > IMHO, reality trumps wishful thinking. If it is the official > position of the IETF that vendors shouldn't claim compliance with an > Internet Draft, then perhaps the IETF should ensure that useful and > implemented Internet Drafts are (a) published as an RFC +1 If the process to publish relevant specifications as RFCs was smooth the issues discussed in this thread would be mostly irrelevant. People don't _want_ to reference I-D's for widely implemented protocols. However people will do that when the IETF fail to provide a service to Internet users of publishing stable documents for deployed protocols. Don't blame people for referencing I-D's. Blame the IETF for limiting its own usefulness. And help implements changes in the IETF so that drafts with a relevant community around them gets published as RFCs. Then people will not have a need to cite I-D's any more. > or (b) removed from public presence. That's fine too. It would make it clear that they are temporary working documents. /Simon
- [saag] FW: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Tero Kivinen
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Damien Miller
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Tero Kivinen
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Jones
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Alan DeKok
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Damien Miller
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Side-comment: SSH issues (was: New Version… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] RFCs vs Standards Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: RFCs vs Standards Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Re: RFCs vs Standards John Mattsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Tim Bray
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards StJohns, Michael
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Brian E Carpenter
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Brian E Carpenter
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Joel Halpern
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Behcet Sarikaya
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Brian E Carpenter
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Martin Thomson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Alan DeKok
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards S Moonesamy
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Joel Halpern
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards John Mattsson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Tero Kivinen
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs St… touch@strayalpha.com
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Phillip Hallam-Baker