Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05
Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> Fri, 29 July 2016 23:59 UTC
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To: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@neustar.biz>
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From: Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>
Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 16:59:30 -0700
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Subject: Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05
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Jon, On 7/29/2016 2:56 PM, Peterson, Jon wrote: > The only thing JWT has to do with SIP is that JWT can be a container for a > signed set of metadata and claims that might be useful in preventing > impersonation in a SIP request. JWT was chosen not because it has any > exclusive or special applicability to SIP, but instead because it could > have applicability both to SIP and other protocols. Sorry to be repetitious but I do not see that case made, discussed or agreed to in the working group record. What I did see was a repeated claim that using JWT was simpler, which I suspect is quite simply wrong, if only because it requires more mechanism that directly adding the necessary information to a SIP header field. (cf, DKIM, of course.) >> Note that during the wg session in Berlin there was /still/ question >> about where to put the JWT information. > > Kind of. It was a question about the best syntax for transporting only And there's the rub. At this stage of the effort, after 3 years of wg effort, and given three major drafts in wg Last Call, something as basic as how to carry the necessary information for its primary use case is not settled yet. That's quite troubling, both in general and, given the importance and urgency of that motivating use case, in particular. >> The recording of that interim is not accessible and the very terse >> summary text of the session show nothing about an intervention. > > The "intervention" is reflected in the summary text: "Chris Wendt > introduced the verified token being discussed in the IP-NNI task force." Sorry to belabor this but how does 'introducing' something equate to "a major intervention in the work last fall to the effect that we need to build more generically for real-time communications rather than just SIP. We're interested in getting this to work properly with WebRTC..."? > We made a decision there to > try to merge these into the core proposal, as the summary reads "An open > design team was formed to discuss finding a common way to address the > signaling." Ahh, so that's what that was intended to mean. Except that while the word 'signaling' does show up in the messages at that time, it doesn't seem to apply to this point. > You are absolutely correct that there were no submissions to the STIR > mailing list immediately following the interim on Friday October 9. Not a > single related email went out on Saturday the 10th, Sunday the 11th, or > even Monday October 12th (which, incidentally, was Columbus Day). Then, on > the 13th, the only mail that went out announced that the Doodle poll for > the design team had (behind the scenes) resolved, and that its first > meeting would be that coming Friday, the 16th. The day of that design call > there were 44 messages sent to the list on related subjects. So, I think I understand the general idea behind 'claims' in a larger context of transactions and reputations. As a general model for making and maybe validating a variety of assertions /about/ an entity, it's probably a reasonable approach, although the pragmatics of its application at Internet scale are arguably unproven. However the task of authenticating the proper use of an identifier in a field is a rather more constrained requirement. And there are a number of operational examples, which happen not to require a general claims model. Simply put, the task is to take an identifier, bind it to the object that is relevant (such as a SIP Invite), where the binding mechanism requires a basic demonstration of 'approval' of the identifier's use, from the authority responsible for administering the identifier. That really is all there is to the required semantics. Things only get complicated when the goal is made more general (which I don't see prompted by the working group charter.) >> Nor do I see anything in the mailing list postings that /do/ show up >> those several days later. > > I can imagine that since I had to annotate even the summary text of the > interim meeting in order to show how it related to this topic, it might > not be clear from the threads on encoding, the NNI and so on how they were > salient to these decisions if you weren't participating in the WG at the > time. Maybe looking at the design team minutes for Oct 16th would be > clearer? It at least mentioned JWT explicitly. I had already looked at those notes. They didn't help. There is nothing I saw that made this expanded scope obvious, nevermind justified. > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/stir/current/msg02183.html > >> So I've no idea what you meant by "hard upon it." > > I understand you feel that progress should have been more immediate to > justify my characterization. > >> Hence your explanation: >> >> "we need to build more generically for real-time communications >> rather than just SIP." >> >> does not seem to reflected in the wg record. > > Maybe you'll find the Oct 16th design team minutes clearer on this point. > Or maybe they too would require more annotation to clarify the subject and > thinking of the working group after the fact. The discussions that they > reflect, anyway, were sufficient to drive consensus at the time. Sorry. I still don't see any discussion on the list for the specific requirement of other uses. Lots of discussion about delegation -- including one suggesting a lack of requirement for a 'nicely engineered, convoluted, infinitely extensible, handles all corner cases certificate delegation model' -- but not for the expanded scope I am asking after. So perhaps it was agreed to by the group in the same fashion that was apparently going to be expressed for the current draft during the Last Call, namely silence. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Tony Rutkowski
- [stir] Robocall Strike Force Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Russ Housley
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Russ Housley
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Brian Rosen
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Brian Rosen
- [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last Call Russ Housley
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-ietf-… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Victor Pascual
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Chris Wendt
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Eric Burger
- [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [stir] Robocall Strike Force DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Russ Housley
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Setting Direction for the STIR WG Last… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Chris Wendt
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] JWT/JSON (was - Re: Review of: draft-i… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Chris Wendt
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Alex Bobotek
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Review of: draft-ietf-stir-passport-05 Chris Wendt