Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announcement list
tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com> Wed, 29 September 2021 16:31 UTC
Return-Path: <daedulus@btconnect.com>
X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB7F3A00F7; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:31:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LHtiYa_y7OiS; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr150093.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.15.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56D1B3A00D3; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:30:54 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=VcwnnK7oPK7cT54mLuamkkEGt8/tgDs8i9kHhaXl5An0jz2UOIpYlOaXHzsezW6sNUinGZ2+5c15IuS7d+SUfsaJzwWTClo/8tcr9b+MgNZHV4u4xeDucnBUQrbcG38Tojr0accwlJ7tptyNT7IDFnrogyik9lGJW11hoibgfha7lWlOSZIJELA8A+yzYgUl1N+JiW+YhHor0LW8BYFgfZl0iP4bdukjHuFqR49id5srYcUHotHao0KC+zuvvwVLJX8piZ03Lu14tyryLOdW+xtPVlU2LNNclxLZJg4cxuaVBYAcKPEkGgYXSHah1CaagfCtV8Cko7kj3tBC4NPh9w==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=cNNIUSbf+4C2PVE8SRAlAo0dYprtDd566UZQiFj7q+g=; b=jsh3LCbGOuDW/ismFbwNibUB9mhC5A1BF51JEc1TQK5NcI8dzBszEtlHSgmWOrGGn5d/vHar46lFVXI8yqILTQD5+iBi9KP6/pNr7RikRq+gWC92YzQswaxIKl1hBc8LMWxB8Yy4NdV8GRH6nktFlkDHZcyOv07ikAuvQaOrZ5ufa5zmI6nia0bNJGPpXfhweDujIg9QLE+bOK4UAEdFrp0PqKfqK/ESJ0XGMjNWbsvUkjpc1zuSt18OVRjI6Tkov28Mtz/DALb6CCgXjlH07nbMk+uzgLIJlakD5YyJKf+juCMUUC7349ysVsklquwoG5XlJVL3LmXr4ukysVE9Fw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=btconnect.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=btconnect.com; dkim=pass header.d=btconnect.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-btconnect-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=cNNIUSbf+4C2PVE8SRAlAo0dYprtDd566UZQiFj7q+g=; b=T8PhcHAGPIfiACAOJ/Y+MEOpHsjysp+Q//kwO28pH+HyneDpDwXD6PA1GQWTPN60GTSC/mAKC83vRiQmiFltGSR/udT0jKje2ppC3pY0mDnX9cR5gAnJnLjvNM3wMvnsKbiy9754P4r9XJvDT5sRYVL6sZvmqXEyxsuq1MesTUU=
Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com;
Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8) by VI1PR07MB5710.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:d4::25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4566.10; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:30:48 +0000
Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::da:1b00:ebb3:ffd9]) by VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::da:1b00:ebb3:ffd9%2]) with mapi id 15.20.4566.014; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:30:48 +0000
Subject: Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announcement list
To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch>
References: <f22d22ea-80da-e595-d91f-c577461766a3@huitema.net> <44B61547-1B28-4D1C-88C1-4AD7BA7F9639@lear.ch> <69E7C755-D09C-447B-B327-4F13C19A3EED@eggert.org> <475d7515-f71a-c3f0-e455-03336226cc47@lear.ch> <04F3603A-514B-49DF-81C5-36023CBBB69E@eggert.org>
Cc: Working Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
From: tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <615494B4.6000107@btconnect.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:30:44 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0
In-Reply-To: <04F3603A-514B-49DF-81C5-36023CBBB69E@eggert.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: LO4P123CA0418.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:18b::9) To VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [192.168.1.65] (109.149.163.252) by LO4P123CA0418.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:18b::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.20.4544.15 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:30:47 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: f986d5b5-f911-4919-5b5b-08d983667e3f
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR07MB5710:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <VI1PR07MB5710CC23095AC23FA72F5A11C6A99@VI1PR07MB5710.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(4001150100001)(2616005)(26005)(38100700002)(86362001)(956004)(38350700002)(186003)(83380400001)(52116002)(87266011)(4326008)(54906003)(6486002)(110136005)(36756003)(66476007)(6666004)(66946007)(66556008)(8936002)(53546011)(316002)(16576012)(8676002)(5660300002)(508600001)(2906002)(33656002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: 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
X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f986d5b5-f911-4919-5b5b-08d983667e3f
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Sep 2021 16:30:47.8884 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: 9OJ6+nfi6D7zsUp1NzUi9a0EPLmSPaIagfypLtfvEOhMlsK1fHg5MLtjqAGysDCRtjqHZ+038iBj/NvfmPQXJg==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB5710
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/7WbzHBzdBqdoiZrxgoAs0wttB4Y>
X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/wgchairs>, <mailto:wgchairs-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/wgchairs/>
List-Post: <mailto:wgchairs@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:wgchairs-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wgchairs>, <mailto:wgchairs-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:31:01 -0000
On 29/09/2021 13:11, Lars Eggert wrote: > > On 2021-9-27, at 18:36, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote: >> In an admirable effort to be transparent, we have inundated this list in particular with data. We now need to take the time to reduce that data to usable information. Please take another swing. > > the IESG certainly could. But I'm also pretty convinced that whatever proposal we came up with would get improved by the community pretty immediately. > > So maybe we could try the opposite, and see if the community has some consensus on what information they would like to retain on ietf-announce, under the assumption that that would then remain our lists for broad announcements. > > For reference, here's again the list of posting classes that currently go there, and the count of messages in each class in the last year: > > 1. Announcements sent manually by <various roles> = 284 > 2. Announcements of new and updated WG charters & WG closures = 44 > 3. (included in above 44) > 4. Announcements of new non-WG mailing lists = 13 > 5. Announcements of new RFCs = 275 > 6. IESG and LLC telechat announcements = 39 > 7. Announcements of document actions = 175 > 8. Announcements of IESG conflict-review results = 14 > 9. Last call announcements for I-Ds = 174 (+ 4 for other actions) > 10. Interim WG meeting announcements = 256 > > The "important-news" proposal would only retain those under (1) above. (We could have a conversation if some of those could also be moved elsewhere, but that's maybe a separate discussion.) I believe that it is a mistake to entitle something important; that is subjective, depends on the sender and is likely not true for the recipient. Perhaps significant, noteworthy, you may be interested to know, anything that leaves the reader with his judgement unimpugned. As to what, then I was thinking that the Admin announcements are the most irrelevant, except when they tell me of an impending outage, or one that just happened, or a possible one due to a migration. These are rare but I would class them as Critical. After that, Last Call announcements. A key feature of the IETF is cross-area review IMHO and the Last Call announcements make that point. They could be summarised, since a last call is two weeks or more then a weekly e-mail of Last Call announcements made in the last seven days would cut the frequency by a factor of three on the IETF list with individual e-mails still going out on a not-so-significant IETF list. After the, announcements about the creation or potential creation or winding up of a Working Group. Again, working in Working Groups is a key feature of the IETF so they matter more. Tom Petch > For any type of posting we'd remove, we could of course create a new list, so that the information was still shared. I understand that when we move to mailman3, we'll get a much better web-based subscription interface that will make managing subscriptions much more straightforward. > > Thanks, > Lars >
- Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announcement l… IETF Chair
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Melchior Aelmans
- IETF calendar (was: Re: Proposal: an "important-n… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Bob Hinden
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Christian Huitema
- RE: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Salz, Rich
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… David Noveck
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Tim Wicinski
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… John C Klensin
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… tom petch
- Re: [irsg] Proposal: an "important-news" IETF ann… Lars Eggert
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Lars Eggert
- Re: [irsg] Proposal: an "important-news" IETF ann… Lars Eggert
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Lars Eggert
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Lars Eggert
- RE: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… MORTON JR., AL
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Stephen Farrell
- RE: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Barry Leiba
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Alexey Melnikov
- RE: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… MORTON JR., AL
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Robert Sparks
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Michael Richardson
- RE: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… John C Klensin
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Barry Leiba
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Barry Leiba
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… John C Klensin
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… tom petch
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… tom petch
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Michael Richardson
- making upcoming calendar more useful Michael Richardson
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Jay Daley
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Barry Leiba
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Jay Daley
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Martin Thomson
- Why last calls matter more than ever [Re: Proposa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: making upcoming calendar more useful John C Klensin
- Re: making upcoming calendar more useful Warren Kumari
- Re: making upcoming calendar more useful Barry Leiba
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… tom petch
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Michael Richardson
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… tom petch
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… John C Klensin
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Michael Richardson
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Robert Sparks
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… Michael Richardson
- Re: Proposal: an "important-news" IETF announceme… John C Klensin
- The links page [was: something else] Brian E Carpenter