Re: [antitrust-policy] back to what problem are we trying to solve
"George Willingmyre" <gtw@gtwassociates.com> Sat, 21 January 2012 17:44 UTC
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From: George Willingmyre <gtw@gtwassociates.com>
To: John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, antitrust-policy@ietf.org
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Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:44:25 -0500
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Cc: david.black@emc.com
Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] back to what problem are we trying to solve
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John, When we began discussing this late last year, I was also asking what problem we were aiming at. I have strived to reconstruct the answer from last December below >From the point of view of what was the closest thing to an example of a real problem from outside of IETF there is a current lawsuit where it is alleged two standards developing organisations have failed to " monitor and enforce the SSO Rules ... " and more see below. As best I know this litigation is on going so there are no conclusions. It seems to me that this example points to the importance of participants following procedures of the standards organizations. I leave for discussion how best to address this sort of problem if it exists in IETF. Here is the trail > From: IETF Chair [chair@ietf.org] > > The IETF legal counsel and insurance agent suggest that the IETF ought > to have an antitrust policy. To address this need, a lawyer is > needed And then to get a little more targeted on a specific exact problem Russ elaborated: ----- Original Message ----- From: IETF Chair To: Ted Hardie Cc: IETF ; IESG Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 2:10 PM Subject: Re: An Antitrust Policy for the IETF Ted: The IETF legal counsel and insurance agent suggest that the IETF ought to have an antitrust policy. To address this need, a lawyer is needed. As a way forward, I suggest that IASA pay a lawyer to come up with an initial draft, and then this draft be brought to the community for review and comment (and probably revision). I think a new mail list should be used for the discussion. Once the new mail list reaches rough consensus on the antitrust policy document, I suggest using the usual process for adopting the policy as an IETF BCP. What do others think? I am open to suggestions for an alternative approach. Sorry, can you expand on the threat model here? Are we developing one in order to defend against some specific worry about our not having one? Because it has become best practice in other SDOs? Because the insurance agent wishes to see something in particular? I hesitate to develop something that we have not needed in the past unless it is clear what benefit it gives us. In particular, if we develop one without some particular characteristic, do we lose the benefits of being where we are now? Recent suits against other SDOs is the source of the concern. The idea is to make it clear which topics are off limits at IETF meetings and on IETF mail lists. In this way, if such discussions take place, the good name of the IETF can be kept clean. Russ And then Jorge provided a real case that points toward participants following procedures ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Contreras To: GTW Cc: IETF Chair ; Ted Hardie ; IETF ; IESG Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 3:58 PM Subject: Re: An Antitrust Policy for the IETF On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 2:35 PM, GTW <gtw@gtwassociates.com> wrote: Ted, I like your approach of enquiring what problem we are striving to solve and I like Russ's concise answer that it is "Recent suits against other SDOs that is the source of the concern" Russ, what are some of the "Recent suits against other SDOs" It would be good to pin down the problem we are addressing There is FTC and N-data matter from 2008 http://www.gtwassociates.com/alerts/Ndata1.htm George -- one recent example is the pending antitrust suit by True Position against ETSI, 3GPP and several of their members (who also employ some IETF participants, I believe). Here is some relevant language from the Complaint: "100. By their failures to monitor and enforce the SSO Rules, and to respond to TruePosition's specific complaints concerning violations of the SSO Rules, 3GPP and ETSI have acquiesced in, are responsible for, and complicit in, the abuse of authority and anticompetitive conduct by Ericsson, Qualcomm, and Alcatel-Lucent. These failures have resulted in the issuance of a Release 9 standard tainted by these unfair processes, and for the delay until Release 11, at the earliest, of a 3GPP standard for UTDOA positioning technology. By these failures, 3GPP and ETSI have authorized and ratified the anticompetitive conduct of Ericsson, Qualcomm, and Alcatel-Lucent and have joined in and become parties to their combination and conspiracy." George T. Willingmyre, P.E. President, GTW Associates Spencerville, MD USA 20868 301.421.4138 www.gtwassociates.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com> To: <antitrust-policy@ietf.org> Cc: <david.black@emc.com> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] back to what problem are we trying to solve > >What difference do you see between paid membership and paid meeting fees? > > Most of the IETF's work happens on mailing lists like this one. I > realize it would take a dimwitted set of conspirators to do their > conspiring in a written medium that has a public realtime archive, but > that hasn't stopped people before. > > So anyway, can someone please explain what problem we're trying to solve > here. > > Is it to reduce the chance that the IETF is involved in an antitrust legal > case? > > Is it to reduce the chance that IETF participants get themselves or their > employers > involved in a legal case? > > Is it to improve awareness of anti-trust law, to help people be good > citizens? > > Something else? > > R's, > John > > PS: "All of the above" is not a helpful answer, since that would equally > apply to > the anti-marijuana policy. > > _______________________________________________ > antitrust-policy mailing list > antitrust-policy@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/antitrust-policy >
- [antitrust-policy] New Non-WG Mailing List: antit… IETF Secretariat
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Jorge Contreras
- [antitrust-policy] Proprietary information [An An… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Proprietary information [A… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Rigo Wenning
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Jorge Contreras
- [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow discussi… Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Jorge Contreras
- [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those wit… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Thomas Narten
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Thomas Narten
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Thomas Narten
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] back to what problem are w… John Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] back to what problem are w… George Willingmyre
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Rigo Wenning
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… John Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… John Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Rigo Wenning