IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts are IETF stakeholders

"Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> Thu, 22 June 2023 13:21 UTC

Return-Path: <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>
X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD21C151098; Thu, 22 Jun 2023 06:21:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.095
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.095 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com header.b="Zh57CAlD"; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=comcastcorp.onmicrosoft.com header.b="Xqq7KQgd"
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCpAQP71qYnf; Thu, 22 Jun 2023 06:21:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.141.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75E11C169511; Thu, 22 Jun 2023 06:21:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0184889.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 35MCtsOC022980; Thu, 22 Jun 2023 09:21:43 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=9bp6jD/leg8UTYkpD3cYZrrnCVbsYMg83XeIPF15424=; b=Zh57CAlD7O0s/bDdYOnTJpLf+J6E9qNOX/khkXpAyt/aYEyTlTZJBOf0B6OYjh3TMd6i IYj9QxWAre2/5nKMwltHiixOB/TquC83KCMGeTKlOlO+/CrfrHbOSsbkRofQQd+NglMg 1S8wJBvJpYhxhjTV8y8dgQLKLU9x9hv9ywl9a52ji52Pbi63IgwVtu8yarawP3Ek3PnE Z0F8GHRCfftVGsTuU1PqhTV9b8XUhafJR0f41jC30pIIJj//IkNcruVdqLJSJicy9IzJ Qtg/5I+kmZoh0RqGXmAobsCOyu+28LlJO4M3Z+OXdnsXmPV2qCF8rtJHZa12sRzvzUtD Ig==
Received: from nam10-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam10lp2105.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.55.105]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3rbmy4b4bx-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 22 Jun 2023 09:21:41 -0400
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=b1PxVnAapBdrk9MtLpRAkn3DInSEQ9h/AuUPXiqe4YK/bn8fblIZEA+kNtfNZVCDt80YXGWfGCA0e7ehgGsaYTyNmp9rZ9vtewzxHA38aaZIRGTc1uS+vl5URIvwKI6e+E225xwUsRxV4I8E6f49ymtJGbdglPcdgoQT8nZzZDYYFvKOiP4DvVdgF2HqY8tYOw2yPDRColpfrc+zXQATRgHhHGehpm2omjF172iL9rjbIJfBZUckRZJ8wdacuJggnTZqM4VHWD/Cbl4Bv0TUX+dOJ/gsCfeW/ldJ5iQYTAryArpkpn7CJmvHx8GC5vBnhScTXpdxQ++2SfzMcwL9CQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=9bp6jD/leg8UTYkpD3cYZrrnCVbsYMg83XeIPF15424=; b=Y3KDQIEEr4qCcJQ26LoMzbHq6EVcvNHJY2Txd6UZuktKeqbbUCSNQqJLdeASkZaTZ47WOWA4rH2VOkUgJfTmx8pY4KFU1HFAgUoeQ6KPnsZpT65jFagGDg2UTDLEQdWo/b4CzNvMUCLxdTGYi2HRGXS5bDTC5+1rcZCVXIAl8LkY7rxDQ5Cu8Kin5OOePsz/slo4SLrdW3Mp4irWComm0hFiYS9n+81t1qPR1GYHdtbaPaoMyPrewmDh1AlKku4O0Oh0UG6uqIg3ynyB/xLSiM1IFfl8dFKoaogqajE+fufj5MzVsSr79Tzy3ctyg+Ms8BeYRVIJlZLt++66YNVKbw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcastcorp.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-comcastcorp-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=9bp6jD/leg8UTYkpD3cYZrrnCVbsYMg83XeIPF15424=; b=Xqq7KQgds4SMCv455Q/dB3Lyxs60lYidk3DPh0P5aZtxNQKDkUncmcG7E0TjcfKceTxspyNwme4iwv9h7tsj1ObPTmXsrP2XZWMt85yf4htOZnQfZ9P4Pg3OV+h77muhzD3eAIPKvQPrBS+U4PWRxSRTMw5mjV7TwwHf2i4vBkM=
Received: from MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:f3::22) by MW4PR11MB6982.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:303:228::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6521.24; Thu, 22 Jun 2023 13:21:16 +0000
Received: from MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::465a:7243:9d22:3c89]) by MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::465a:7243:9d22:3c89%3]) with mapi id 15.20.6521.023; Thu, 22 Jun 2023 13:21:16 +0000
From: "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "gendispatch@ietf.org" <gendispatch@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts are IETF stakeholders
Thread-Index: AQHZngwyTjbejHDPFUOMMWUclaI6nK+JVaSAgAAFCoCAAAwigIAAGzYAgAprpACAApHDgIAAJIgA///1u4A=
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 13:21:15 +0000
Message-ID: <4C869AD8-A776-4D3D-858D-578976AC5438@cable.comcast.com>
References: <6b349547-a26b-4028-14a7-6be3f3e44321@huitema.net> <20230620163302.ACBA8F6FA18F@ary.qy> <231861687.27760.1687420035913@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <dcbc3ecf-0f55-a3b8-aed6-74dd11756303@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <dcbc3ecf-0f55-a3b8-aed6-74dd11756303@cs.tcd.ie>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
msip_labels: MSIP_Label_15652fe2-2b59-4d95-925c-ee86d789ff67_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_15652fe2-2b59-4d95-925c-ee86d789ff67_ActionId=b631632d-0ac3-4924-b138-eb7520f49362; MSIP_Label_15652fe2-2b59-4d95-925c-ee86d789ff67_SetDate=2023-06-22T13:00:25Z; MSIP_Label_15652fe2-2b59-4d95-925c-ee86d789ff67_SiteId=906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa; MSIP_Label_15652fe2-2b59-4d95-925c-ee86d789ff67_Name=Confidential (C); MSIP_Label_15652fe2-2b59-4d95-925c-ee86d789ff67_ContentBits=0; MSIP_Label_15652fe2-2b59-4d95-925c-ee86d789ff67_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_15652fe2-2b59-4d95-925c-ee86d789ff67_Method=Standard;
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.74.23061100
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3709:EE_|MW4PR11MB6982:EE_
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 78298655-1139-4fec-135f-08db73238ed0
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230028)(4636009)(396003)(136003)(366004)(346002)(376002)(39860400002)(451199021)(6512007)(6506007)(186003)(5660300002)(15650500001)(71200400001)(82960400001)(478600001)(66899021)(38100700002)(122000001)(2616005)(38070700005)(8936002)(2906002)(6486002)(8676002)(41300700001)(66476007)(66556008)(110136005)(66946007)(33656002)(83380400001)(66574015)(316002)(64756008)(66446008)(966005)(86362001)(296002)(76116006)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: 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
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: <AE6FE490FB36744B928CA4D502FDD2EC@namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: cable.comcast.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 78298655-1139-4fec-135f-08db73238ed0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Jun 2023 13:21:15.9899 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: N5qoXLmXdrlBZWXMGhJ0WfvXBxvXlORAeGRgxrF0AD4n3tdTpBP+di1i4T0wRwUAuCz863SpOKVVV1vD2qukRsYRFhg8Xdx2PGibsxXRXaU=
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MW4PR11MB6982
X-Proofpoint-GUID: iDxvpvCcxNEz6vfg66SmjavjcIMuQi8d
X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: iDxvpvCcxNEz6vfg66SmjavjcIMuQi8d
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.254,Aquarius:18.0.957,Hydra:6.0.591,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2023-06-22_09,2023-06-22_01,2023-05-22_02
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/_w4rg4345DRgRmZuXL6oVrSGIK0>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts are IETF stakeholders
X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: General Area Dispatch <gendispatch.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/gendispatch/>
List-Post: <mailto:gendispatch@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 13:21:52 -0000

> So in the general case, backdoor'd crypto is not IMO a
thing where there exists a sensible policy choice, no
more than one can make policy choices about gravity.

FWIW in the US, our (SIP-based) IP voice service must comply with US CALEA requirements (see https://www.fcc.gov/calea). This means that while the user sessions are encrypted that on the backend the government can seek things ranging from call detail records (metadata about call to/from/timestamp/duration) to delayed or live call contents. 

This obviously requires specific legal requirements be met to comply with law enforcement requests, as outlined in https://lrc.comcast.com/lea?id=new_lincs_lea_guide_page_b, and there are strict controls around this and an entire department of personnel to support it. It is routine for operators to deal with law enforcement requests pertaining to traceback of threats of violence (e.g., bomb threat), hostage situations, missing persons, etc. There are of course transparency reports about this - such as https://assets.xfinity.com/assets/dotcom/projects/cix-2605_irr-re-platform/Transparency_Report_2H2022.pdf. 

In the context of IETF standards development I think this simply illustrates that operators face real-world policy choices and need to comply with a range of legal requirements to operate in various markets. As for the question of this thread on when to involve policy experts - I guess I don’t see why policy experts would not be involved early as s stakeholder just as security, privacy, and other experts would -- it should result in better standards IMO. 

Jason

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email