Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket?
Greg Wilkins <gregw@webtide.com> Sat, 30 January 2010 00:33 UTC
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Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 11:33:44 +1100
From: Greg Wilkins <gregw@webtide.com>
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Subject: Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket?
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Roberto, I don't mean to criticise your efforts on SPDY. As I said it is really great that you guys are doing that kind of research and you're finding out great stuff. I'm definitely not advocating that you should do design by committee and I don't mean to fault what you have done to date. The note of caution I was trying to highlight, is what if google started shipping Chrome with SPDY enabled. Given Googles general market presence (and growing browser presence), that would essentially be a take over of the future of HTTP by a single corporation. Considering how they have proceeded with websocket, it is not inconceivable that a similar path might eventually be followed for SPDY. That is why it is important that the internet industry through the IETF clearly asserts that the IETF process is the currently accepted way of creating consensus for internet protocols. Even if the "network has ossified" somewhat (and I've been robustly corrected before for saying similar), that is not a reason to give up on a consensus approach. The WHATWG is not an alternative consensus mechanism, it is a closed consortium of a one sector of the industry, with a market-share behemoth in control. I don't mean to be over dramatic, but this discussion is essentially about if we are going to cede control over the future of internet protocols from the IETF to Google. Sorry again if my comments were taken as a criticism of your work on SPDY. None was intended, just a note of caution about the future. regards Roberto Peon wrote: > I guess I can't just lurk today! > > Actually for SPDY we're trying to do a lot of experimentation (i.e. > research) and then we'll figure out what the standard needs to be. > Until we know it is actually better *and why*, it is not useful to waste > people's time discussing a standard. > > Were we to do it the other way around (set a standard, and then do > research), things would be unlikely to work well.. what else would you > have us do? > We're even being public about it, with open source implementations for > something which will be backwards compatible with what exists today... > Honestly, if it worked, I'd happily use a different port (currently > we're wanting to use port 443 and it *is* an encrypted channel), but we > have data that shows that this doesn't work reliably. > > It seems like the network has ossified a bit, and it is hard to get any > changes out there. > -=R > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Greg Wilkins <gregw@webtide.com > <mailto:gregw@webtide.com>> wrote: > > Ian Hickson wrote: > > Instead, what's happened is the equivalent of me talking to some > of the > > people working on HTTP, and then saying "ok we'll do HTTP on a new > mailing > > list" and not even letting the HTTP working group know about it. > > Hello!!!! Google has done exactly that! SPDY! > > http://dev.chromium.org/spdy/ > > > Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesomely great that google is doing > such research. But google has to be aware that their market power > makes them a poor community player. If chrome suddenly started > shipping with SPDY enabled by default, then that would effectively > be a hostile takeover of HTTP. > > As google has done exactly this with websocket, it shows that they > have no concerns about doing a non consensus based takeover of > port 80, so why not takeover the entire web protocol as well. > > > You talk as if the IETF is trying to do the take over. > > The reality is that the IETF has had custodianship of the internet > protocols since day dot, and it is Google^H^H^H^H^H^HWhatWG that is > trying to take over the job of creating new internet standards. > Maybe that was warranted in the case of HTML5 and the W3C, but I see > no evidence that IETF deserves to be usurped when it comes to > their role regarding internet protocols. > > > regards > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hybi mailing list > hybi@ietf.org <mailto:hybi@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi > >
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Wenbo Zhu
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Rob Sayre
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Rob Sayre
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Francis Brosnan Blazquez
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Jamie Lokier
- [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Roberto Peon
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (was R… Maciej Stachowiak
- [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Technic… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Roberto Peon
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was: Pro… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? John Fallows
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Thomson, Martin
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Thomson, Martin
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Francis Brosnan Blazquez
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Mridul Muralidharan
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Mridul Muralidharan
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Mridul Muralidharan
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Scott Ferguson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Graham Klyne
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Adam Barth
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson