Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls
"Richard Shockey" <richard@shockey.us> Fri, 30 September 2011 01:20 UTC
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From: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>
To: 'Hadriel Kaplan' <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
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Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 21:23:04 -0400
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Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls
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On Sep 29, 2011, at 7:21 PM, Richard Shockey wrote: > RS> And at the rate this discussion is going it is reasonable to assume that > it might be 10 years before RTCWEB might be able to reach consensus. But for > what it's worth the end of POTS/PSTN is under active discussion. If for no > other reason than the backplanes of the 5E's and DMS 500's are literally > cracking at a increasing pace. Remember 3G mobile networks still use TDM > Switches. Bernard's point is well taken RTCWEB shouldn't worry about > interconnection some gateway or border element will normalize that problem > in some way shape or form. But it's not "POTS" that's really the point - it's the "PSTN". From the perspective of this group, the "PSTN" is everything reachable through SIP service providers: every cell/mobile phone, DSL/Cablemodem MTA, PRI trunk, SIP Enterprise trunk, POTS landline, etc. There are more of those right now than there are devices on the Internet.[1] And way more of those than number of users and Web Browsers on the Internet.[2] Ok but that is a distinction that is causing lots of problems in identifying the real issue. The PSTN as you put it, is essentially a national and internationally regulated business model of mandated interconnection for realtime communications that uses E.164 addressing. It's a policy construct. It's a set of national specific rules, regulations, emergency services and cost recovery models. POTS, as I would prefer it to be defined, is the technical underpinning of everything in the PSTN reachable through SIP service providers etc and that's what we are ultimately talking about. And yes you are right there are more POTS end points out there than devices on the Internet, until we get rid of POTS and fold them into the "greater good" of IP and that process is progressing very well as far as I can tell. Confusing the two is going to cause everyone a lot of grief. -hadriel [1] Based on several sources which claim approx 5 Billion mobile phones, 1.2 Billion POTS lines, and hundreds of millions of MTAs, and untold number of PRI and SIP trunks; which I'm guesstimating totals about 7 Billion. Compared to approx 5 Billion current devices on the Internet, according to www.imsresearch.com. (though they include things like printers and cameras in their counts) [2] Based on ~2 Billion users, from www.internetworldstats.com and data.worldbank.org.
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Cameron Byrne
- [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- [rtcweb] RFC 5245 interpretation (Re: Requiring I… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] RFC 5245 interpretation (Re: Requiri… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] RFC 5245 interpretation (Re: Requiri… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] RFC 5245 interpretation (Re: Requiri… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Eric Rescorla
- [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC calls, … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Igor Faynberg
- [rtcweb] ICE deployment experience (Re: Solutions… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Richard Shockey
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Richard Shockey
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] SBC hardware and SHA1 Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] SBC hardware and SHA1 Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] SBC hardware and SHA1 Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] SBC hardware and SHA1 Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SBC hardware and SHA1 Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SBC hardware and SHA1 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SBC hardware and SHA1 Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SBC hardware and SHA1 Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Solutions sought for non-ICE RTC cal… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] Requiring ICE for RTC calls Cullen Jennings