Re: [Drip] Fwd: ADSB

[Stu Card <[e-mail]>]

Ground use is unlikely to flood low altitude airborne or ground based receivers due to UHF being essentially LOS blocked by curvature of the earth, but it still affects satellite based receivers in between low elevation angles (where atmospheric and ionospheric attenuation are high) and very high elevation angles (where transmitter antenna patterns might have nulls).

From: Tm-rid <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Robert Moskowitz
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 8:38 AM
To: Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke=[e-mail]>; Alexandre PETRESCU <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Drip] Fwd: ADSB

And such ground use has little impact on carrier capacity of towers away from the ground location of sender.

An airport can have specific receivers for such units and feed the data into the whole ATC network without eating up bandwidth for those in-coming big birds.
On 7/11/23 08:32, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
From my very little private pilot experience:
- ADS-B is indeed used on things that are not aircrafts (like emergency or inspection vehicles on an airport)
- ADB-B "out" information from aircraft needs to be received (obviously) by an ADS-B "in" receiver and the frequency is 'line of sight', so to be seen they need to high enough from a ground station to get clear of the obstacles (trees, hills, houses, ...)

-éric (no hat at all!)



From: Tm-rid <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]> on behalf of Alexandre PETRESCU <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Organisation: CEA
Date: Tuesday, 11 July 2023 at 14:26
To: "[e-mail]"<mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Drip] Fwd: ADSB


this is what flightradar calls 'Airport Ground Vehicle'

https://www.flightradar24.com/VEDLYS/3116995d

(they say 0ft, i.e. 0 meter, altitude, but that is wrong too because the altitude there is certainly not zero).

[cid:[e-mail]8CC080]

--

Alexandre Petrescu

[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>, tél [phone]
Le 11/07/2023 à 14:15, Alexandre PETRESCU a écrit :

(sorry, Cc'ing the list as in my first email I just wrote to Med)


-------- Message transféré --------
Sujet :
Re: [Drip] ADSB
Date :
Tue, 11 Jul 2023 14:12:55 +0200
De :
Alexandre Petrescu <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Pour :
[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>


Hi,

ADSB for drones is this on flightradar?

https://www.flightradar24.com/EOSCUAV/3116cefd

The arch draft says "For numerous technical reasons, ADS-B itself is not suitable for low-flying small UAS." ?  The drone(?) in the figure is at approx. 500meter altitude, that I think it is very low.

Also, the arch draft says "The ADS-B is the de jure technology used in manned aviation for sharing location information, from the aircraft to ground " - but I think it is also used for other equipment at airport that is not aircraft.  It might be used for cars (kind of, but surely not flying) or trucks at airport for collision avoidance, I think.



[cid:[e-mail]8CC080]
Alex
Le 15/09/2020 à 07:48, [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> a écrit :
Hi Stu, all,

I was referring to your second point. We need to have a record on these matters in the arch draft.

The text shared by Stephan (thanks) is a good start.

Cheers,
Med

De : Tm-rid [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de Card, Stu
Envoyé : lundi 14 septembre 2020 16:27
À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Cc : [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Objet : Re: [Drip] ADSB

A pointer to the freely available earlier draft of what became ASTM F3411-19 was added to -reqs; is that the outcome to which you refer?
Or do we want something more about how the regulators et al have ruled out ADSB as a RID mechanism for low altitude small UAS?


On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 7:07 AM <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi Stu,

I wonder whether the outcome of this thread was recorded in the arch draft.

Please share with the WG the current status of this action point.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Med

De : Tm-rid [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>] De la part de Card, Stu
Envoyé : mercredi 5 août 2020 15:20
À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc : [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Objet : Re: [Drip] ADSB

Will do.

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 5:13 AM <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi Stu,

I remember that Andrei raised in the past a question about the use of ADB-S.. I suspect that others may make a similar comment in the future.
Having some text in draft-ietf-drip-arch reflecting the main arguments shared in this thread (by Shuai, Bob, Stephan, you) will be useful.

Can you please consider adding such text to the draft?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Tm-rid [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>] De la part de Stuart W.
> Card
> Envoyé : mardi 4 août 2020 19:12
> À : [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
> Objet : Re: [Drip] ADSB
>
> The proposed manifest and other DRIP authentication related structures
> are all independent of transport, but designed to work with the most
> constraining transport thus specified by regulators and/or other SDOs,
> that being ASTM F3411 Broadcast RID over Bluetooth 4.
>
> So, for Broadcast RID, they would be encapsulated in ASTM F3411
> messages over Bluetooth 4, Bluetooth 5 or WiFi Neighbor Awareness
> Networking (without IP).
>
> For Network RID, they could be carried in any IP based transport,
> HTTPS/TCP/IP initially (although, for Network RID, some of them are
> superfluous).
>
> On 8/4/2020 11:27 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
> > Thanks for the clarification.
> >
> > Le 04/08/2020 à 17:17, Stuart W. Card a écrit :
> >> I just want to respond to one line that I think comes from
> confusion:
> >>
> >>> But if we have reluctance about the use of ADS-B, and thus of IP,
> >>> and we recommend Bluetooth-without-IP to identify drones
> >>
> >> We aren't recommending Bluetooth-without-IP, we are _supporting_
> it,
> >
> > But, the security manifest that I have seen on slides during the
> > presentation of the DRIP WG meeting - is something below IP, right?
>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------
> Stuart W. Card, PhD, Principal Engineer
> AX Enterprize, LLC  www.axenterprize.com<http://www.axenterprize.com>
> 4947 Commercial Drive, Yorkville NY 13495


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