Re: [Drip] Fwd: ADSB

[Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]>]

One more point on ADS-B capacity.

FAA estimates 1.4M UA flying now in the USA.  Embry-Riddle Aviation U 
has studies showing it is at least double that.  UA traffic ERAU has 
already measured at some major airports would swamp ADS-B capacity at 
those airports.

And 2^24 is only 16M?  And the way that space is carved up no where 
close to that capacity.

On 7/11/23 08:32, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> The FAA has stated that ADS-B will not be used for UAS.  The subject 
> is probably open for large UAS cargo and taxi UA.
>
> Same with most of the other CAAs.
>
> A number of issues with use of ADS-B
>
> Not enough carrier capacity for the expected UAS RF traffic where 
> large aircraft use of ADS-B can be life-critical.
>
> Aircraft number for ADS-B is only 24 bits and that is carved up. Just 
> not enough numbers plus how to manage them.
>
> And no possible way to add trust to ADS-B.  Fraudulent aircraft 
> numbers is already an issue.   I have proposals and they are total 
> hacks.  Just not enough carrier capacity.
>
> Cost of ADS-B transponders on UA ($, weight, power).
>
> there are probably a few more reasons that the CAAs (and ICAO) have 
> rejected ADS-B for UAS.  Though I do know that the main manufacturer 
> of ADS-B transponders is still pushing this solution.
>
> Bob
>
> On 7/11/23 08:15, Alexandre PETRESCU wrote:
>>
>> (sorry, Cc'ing the list as in my first email I just wrote to Med)
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Message transféré --------
>> Sujet : 	Re: [Drip] ADSB
>> Date : 	Tue, 11 Jul 2023 14:12:55 +0200
>> De : 	Alexandre Petrescu <[e-mail]>
>> Pour : 	[e-mail]
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> ADSB for drones is this on flightradar?
>>
>> https://www.flightradar24.com/EOSCUAV/3116cefd
>>
>> The arch draft says "For numerous technical reasons, ADS-B itself is 
>> not suitable for low-flying small UAS." ?  The drone(?) in the figure 
>> is at approx. 500meter altitude, that I think it is very low.
>>
>> Also, the arch draft says "The ADS-B is the de jure technology used 
>> in manned aviation for sharing location information, from the 
>> aircraft to ground " - but I think it is also used for other 
>> equipment at airport that is not aircraft.  It might be used for cars 
>> (kind of, but surely not flying) or trucks at airport for collision 
>> avoidance, I think.
>>
>>
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> Le 15/09/2020 à 07:48, [e-mail] a écrit :
>>>
>>> Hi Stu, all,
>>>
>>> I was referring to your second point. We need to have a record on 
>>> these matters in the arch draft.
>>>
>>> The text shared by Stephan (thanks) is a good start.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Med
>>>
>>> *De :*Tm-rid [mailto:[e-mail]] *De la part de* Card, Stu
>>> *Envoyé :* lundi 14 septembre 2020 16:27
>>> *À :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <[e-mail]>
>>> *Cc :* [e-mail]
>>> *Objet :* Re: [Drip] ADSB
>>>
>>> A pointer to the freely available earlier draft of what became ASTM 
>>> F3411-19 was added to -reqs; is that the outcome to which you refer?
>>>
>>> Or do we want something more about how the regulators et al have 
>>> ruled out ADSB as a RID mechanism for low altitude small UAS?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 7:07 AM <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi Stu,
>>>
>>>     I wonder whether the outcome of this thread was recorded in the
>>>     arch draft.
>>>
>>>     Please share with the WG the current status of this action point.
>>>
>>>     Thank you.
>>>
>>>     Cheers,
>>>
>>>     Med
>>>
>>>     *De :*Tm-rid [mailto:[e-mail]] *De la part de*
>>>     Card, Stu
>>>     *Envoyé :* mercredi 5 août 2020 15:20
>>>     *À :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <[e-mail]>
>>>     *Cc :* [e-mail]
>>>     *Objet :* Re: [Drip] ADSB
>>>
>>>     Will do.
>>>
>>>     On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 5:13 AM <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Hi Stu,
>>>
>>>         I remember that Andrei raised in the past a question about
>>>         the use of ADB-S.. I suspect that others may make a similar
>>>         comment in the future.
>>>         Having some text in draft-ietf-drip-arch reflecting the main
>>>         arguments shared in this thread (by Shuai, Bob, Stephan,
>>>         you) will be useful.
>>>
>>>         Can you please consider adding such text to the draft?
>>>
>>>         Thank you.
>>>
>>>         Cheers,
>>>         Med
>>>
>>>         > -----Message d'origine-----
>>>         > De : Tm-rid [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de
>>>         Stuart W.
>>>         > Card
>>>         > Envoyé : mardi 4 août 2020 19:12
>>>         > À : [e-mail]
>>>         > Objet : Re: [Drip] ADSB
>>>         >
>>>         > The proposed manifest and other DRIP authentication
>>>         related structures
>>>         > are all independent of transport, but designed to work
>>>         with the most
>>>         > constraining transport thus specified by regulators and/or
>>>         other SDOs,
>>>         > that being ASTM F3411 Broadcast RID over Bluetooth 4.
>>>         >
>>>         > So, for Broadcast RID, they would be encapsulated in ASTM
>>>         F3411
>>>         > messages over Bluetooth 4, Bluetooth 5 or WiFi Neighbor
>>>         Awareness
>>>         > Networking (without IP).
>>>         >
>>>         > For Network RID, they could be carried in any IP based
>>>         transport,
>>>         > HTTPS/TCP/IP initially (although, for Network RID, some of
>>>         them are
>>>         > superfluous).
>>>         >
>>>         > On 8/4/2020 11:27 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
>>>         > > Thanks for the clarification.
>>>         > >
>>>         > > Le 04/08/2020 à 17:17, Stuart W. Card a écrit :
>>>         > >> I just want to respond to one line that I think comes from
>>>         > confusion:
>>>         > >>
>>>         > >>> But if we have reluctance about the use of ADS-B, and
>>>         thus of IP,
>>>         > >>> and we recommend Bluetooth-without-IP to identify drones
>>>         > >>
>>>         > >> We aren't recommending Bluetooth-without-IP, we are
>>>         _supporting_
>>>         > it,
>>>         > >
>>>         > > But, the security manifest that I have seen on slides
>>>         during the
>>>         > > presentation of the DRIP WG meeting - is something below
>>>         IP, right?
>>>         >
>>>         >
>>>         > --
>>>         > -----------------------------------------
>>>         > Stuart W. Card, PhD, Principal Engineer
>>>         > AX Enterprize, LLC www.axenterprize.com
>>>         <http://www.axenterprize.com>
>>>         > 4947 Commercial Drive, Yorkville NY 13495
>>>
>>>
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>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
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>>
>
>

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