Re: [Drip] Fwd: ADSB

[Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]>]

The FAA has stated that ADS-B will not be used for UAS.  The subject is 
probably open for large UAS cargo and taxi UA.

Same with most of the other CAAs.

A number of issues with use of ADS-B

Not enough carrier capacity for the expected UAS RF traffic where large 
aircraft use of ADS-B can be life-critical.

Aircraft number for ADS-B is only 24 bits and that is carved up. Just 
not enough numbers plus how to manage them.

And no possible way to add trust to ADS-B.  Fraudulent aircraft numbers 
is already an issue.   I have proposals and they are total hacks.  Just 
not enough carrier capacity.

Cost of ADS-B transponders on UA ($, weight, power).

there are probably a few more reasons that the CAAs (and ICAO) have 
rejected ADS-B for UAS.  Though I do know that the main manufacturer of 
ADS-B transponders is still pushing this solution.

Bob

On 7/11/23 08:15, Alexandre PETRESCU wrote:
>
> (sorry, Cc'ing the list as in my first email I just wrote to Med)
>
>
>
> -------- Message transféré --------
> Sujet : 	Re: [Drip] ADSB
> Date : 	Tue, 11 Jul 2023 14:12:55 +0200
> De : 	Alexandre Petrescu <[e-mail]>
> Pour : 	[e-mail]
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> ADSB for drones is this on flightradar?
>
> https://www.flightradar24.com/EOSCUAV/3116cefd
>
> The arch draft says "For numerous technical reasons, ADS-B itself is 
> not suitable for low-flying small UAS." ?  The drone(?) in the figure 
> is at approx. 500meter altitude, that I think it is very low.
>
> Also, the arch draft says "The ADS-B is the de jure technology used in 
> manned aviation for sharing location information, from the aircraft to 
> ground " - but I think it is also used for other equipment at airport 
> that is not aircraft.  It might be used for cars (kind of, but surely 
> not flying) or trucks at airport for collision avoidance, I think.
>
>
>
> Alex
>
> Le 15/09/2020 à 07:48, [e-mail] a écrit :
>>
>> Hi Stu, all,
>>
>> I was referring to your second point. We need to have a record on 
>> these matters in the arch draft.
>>
>> The text shared by Stephan (thanks) is a good start.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Med
>>
>> *De :*Tm-rid [mailto:[e-mail]] *De la part de* Card, Stu
>> *Envoyé :* lundi 14 septembre 2020 16:27
>> *À :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <[e-mail]>
>> *Cc :* [e-mail]
>> *Objet :* Re: [Drip] ADSB
>>
>> A pointer to the freely available earlier draft of what became ASTM 
>> F3411-19 was added to -reqs; is that the outcome to which you refer?
>>
>> Or do we want something more about how the regulators et al have 
>> ruled out ADSB as a RID mechanism for low altitude small UAS?
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 7:07 AM <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>     Hi Stu,
>>
>>     I wonder whether the outcome of this thread was recorded in the
>>     arch draft.
>>
>>     Please share with the WG the current status of this action point.
>>
>>     Thank you.
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>
>>     Med
>>
>>     *De :*Tm-rid [mailto:[e-mail]] *De la part de*
>>     Card, Stu
>>     *Envoyé :* mercredi 5 août 2020 15:20
>>     *À :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <[e-mail]>
>>     *Cc :* [e-mail]
>>     *Objet :* Re: [Drip] ADSB
>>
>>     Will do.
>>
>>     On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 5:13 AM <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>         Hi Stu,
>>
>>         I remember that Andrei raised in the past a question about
>>         the use of ADB-S.. I suspect that others may make a similar
>>         comment in the future.
>>         Having some text in draft-ietf-drip-arch reflecting the main
>>         arguments shared in this thread (by Shuai, Bob, Stephan, you)
>>         will be useful.
>>
>>         Can you please consider adding such text to the draft?
>>
>>         Thank you.
>>
>>         Cheers,
>>         Med
>>
>>         > -----Message d'origine-----
>>         > De : Tm-rid [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de
>>         Stuart W.
>>         > Card
>>         > Envoyé : mardi 4 août 2020 19:12
>>         > À : [e-mail]
>>         > Objet : Re: [Drip] ADSB
>>         >
>>         > The proposed manifest and other DRIP authentication related
>>         structures
>>         > are all independent of transport, but designed to work with
>>         the most
>>         > constraining transport thus specified by regulators and/or
>>         other SDOs,
>>         > that being ASTM F3411 Broadcast RID over Bluetooth 4.
>>         >
>>         > So, for Broadcast RID, they would be encapsulated in ASTM F3411
>>         > messages over Bluetooth 4, Bluetooth 5 or WiFi Neighbor
>>         Awareness
>>         > Networking (without IP).
>>         >
>>         > For Network RID, they could be carried in any IP based
>>         transport,
>>         > HTTPS/TCP/IP initially (although, for Network RID, some of
>>         them are
>>         > superfluous).
>>         >
>>         > On 8/4/2020 11:27 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
>>         > > Thanks for the clarification.
>>         > >
>>         > > Le 04/08/2020 à 17:17, Stuart W. Card a écrit :
>>         > >> I just want to respond to one line that I think comes from
>>         > confusion:
>>         > >>
>>         > >>> But if we have reluctance about the use of ADS-B, and
>>         thus of IP,
>>         > >>> and we recommend Bluetooth-without-IP to identify drones
>>         > >>
>>         > >> We aren't recommending Bluetooth-without-IP, we are
>>         _supporting_
>>         > it,
>>         > >
>>         > > But, the security manifest that I have seen on slides
>>         during the
>>         > > presentation of the DRIP WG meeting - is something below
>>         IP, right?
>>         >
>>         >
>>         > --
>>         > -----------------------------------------
>>         > Stuart W. Card, PhD, Principal Engineer
>>         > AX Enterprize, LLC www.axenterprize.com
>>         <http://www.axenterprize.com>
>>         > 4947 Commercial Drive, Yorkville NY 13495
>>
>>
>>         _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>         Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des
>>         informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>         pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si
>>         vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>         a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes.
>>         Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>         Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete
>>         altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>
>>         This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
>>         privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>         they should not be distributed, used or copied without
>>         authorisation.
>>         If you have received this email in error, please notify the
>>         sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>>         As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages
>>         that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>         Thank you.
>>
>>     _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>     Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>
>>     pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>
>>     a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>
>>     Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>
>>     This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>
>>     they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>
>>     If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>>
>>     As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>
>>     Thank you.
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>
>