Re: [Drip] ADSB(Internet mail)

["Jarvenpaa, Mika (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <[e-mail]>]

Maybe known info but sending anyway.

Here couple of (a bit random) articles giving some background and reasoning of ’ADS-B in’ for drones and ’ADS-B in/out’ for manned planes plus pros and cons from the different view points (like manned crop spraying plane retrofit case too; similar things in EU about the huge costs for getting ADS-B out to manned airplanes over 5700 kg where mandated).

’ADS-B in’ can be seen only as a nice to have feature on drones, but it won’t solve the issue, it can even give false safety feeling.

’ADS-B out’ won’t be installed / on board / used on all low flying / slow / small European and US manned helicopters, balloons, lightweight planes, gliders, paragliders etc. (in uncontrolled airspace) anytime soon. Also many emergency and military helicopters don’t broadcast their location because of privacy/security issues (eg. press and audience not wanted to emergency scenes).

RID type but secure way of ’sending’ location info would allow other (low flying) manned / unmanned aircrafts to sense and avoid too (when able to receive networked or broadcast info). Maybe ’ADS-B out’ could still be mandated for high flying / fast / heavy UAVs and/or air taxis for some regions for some operations if the volume stay low and limited connectivity or no better way available.

https://www.suasnews.com/2017/05/battle-drone-tracking-technology/

https://www.techradar.com/news/should-you-buy-a-dji-mavic-air-2-without-the-airsense-alert-system


https://www.agaviation.org/2016-first-place-essay

https://sky-review.com/ads-b-philosophy-for-drones

https://uavionix.com/drone-repellent/

EU timeline delayed:
https://www.aviationtoday.com/2020/05/05/ads-b/
https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/news/entry-force-airspace-requirement-ads-b-and-mode-s
https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/EASA_STC_NEWS_JUNE_2018.pdf

FAQs about certification on manned side:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/the-agency/faqs/ads-b-certification

Mika

________________________________
Lähettäjä: Tm-rid <[e-mail]> käyttäjän Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]> puolesta
Lähetetty: torstaina, heinäkuuta 30, 2020 2:00 ip.
Vastaanottaja: Zhao, Shuai (UMKC-Student)
Kopio: [e-mail]; Stuart W. Card
Aihe: Re: [Drip] ADSB(Internet mail)

We need to take the crowd source draft to the next step and define the actual protocol.  Target that for the August Interim.

On 7/30/20 6:53 AM, shuaiizhao(Shuai Zhao) wrote:
It is really hard to foresee the future.

Personally, I don’t think FAA  (in NA) will let the air-taxi going into an airport for taking or landing. But we never know. That is also the reason I think the Crowd source draft has much more weight than everyone else thinks. It might be a good alternative compared with ADS-B since those UA operations might not be as critical as GA.


Best,
Shuai Zhao


From: Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 03:48
To: "shuaiizhao(Shuai Zhao)" <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Cc: "[e-mail]"<mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>, "Stuart W. Card" <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Drip] ADSB(Internet mail)

Shuai,

That was an 'or' question.  My bad.

I don't see urban delivery UA, even rural (I have seen the UPS demo) using ADSB.  I even question air-taxis, other than if they want to make runs to the airport, they will probably require it.

Local delivery UA are already so power starved, severely impacting their range (why UPS has them serviced from their trucks).
On 7/30/20 6:43 AM, shuaiizhao(Shuai Zhao) wrote:
Yes, as well as drones with military purpose,  that’s my understanding.
-SZ iPhone
Please forgive any typos



On Jul 30, 2020, at 03:23, Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]> wrote:
By "commercial drones" do you mean what a delivery service would use or a long-haul freight (Rhaegal) and air-taxis (UAM)?
On 7/30/20 5:49 AM, shuaiizhao(Shuai Zhao) wrote:
Just to echo Stu on the ADSB, AFAIK, ADSB will  not be feasible for most of the drones mostly due to SwaP, commercial drones might be exception.


Best,
Shuai Zhao


From: Tm-rid <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]> on behalf of "Stuart W. Card" <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 19:46
To: "[e-mail]"<mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: [Drip] ADSB (was: Review of draft-drip-arch-02 w.r.t. RFC6973, RFC8280 and other)(Internet mail)

Sorry for the slow reply.

ADS-B is gradually being mandated for essentially all manned aircraft.

ADSB-In and ADSB-Out are mandated for airliners: -In gives their pilots
some Situational Awareness (SA) of other aircraft; -Out gives other
pilots SA of the airliners.

"ADSB-Out" is mandated even for small general aviation aircraft: it does
not directly benefit the pilots of those aircraft; but by providing SA
to others, it indirectly benefits all.

ADSB is _not_ going to be deployed on large numbers of small UAS as it
would overwhelm the limited bandwidth available at those lower radio
frequencies (which propagate long ranges). In fact, it is expected to be
explicitly prohibited in the US per the FAA NPRM; I suspect most of the
rest of the world will do likewise.

ADSB is also altogether insecure.

On 7/9/2020 3:02 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
...
They call it "ADS-B Receivers" (Automatic Dependent Surveillance -
Broadcast).

I wouuld like to ask if there is a packet dump available showing such
presence data form planes?  Maybe wireshark already supports it, maybe
it even dissects it...

--
-----------------------------------------
Stuart W. Card, PhD, Principal Engineer
AX Enterprize, LLC  www.axenterprize.com<http://www.axenterprize.com>
4947 Commercial Drive, Yorkville NY 13495





--
Robert Moskowitz
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HTT Consulting
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--
Robert Moskowitz
Owner
HTT Consulting
C:      248-219-2059
F:      248-968-2824
E:      [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>

There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who gets the credit



--
Robert Moskowitz
Owner
HTT Consulting
C:      248-219-2059
F:      248-968-2824
E:      [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>

There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who gets the credit