Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and indirect mail flows

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> Fri, 14 April 2023 20:25 UTC

Return-Path: <johnl@iecc.com>
X-Original-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996E9C14CE51 for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 13:25:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.847
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b="eG72dVe7"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b="fp31lS5l"
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oua6SyBbne5m for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 13:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8CF1C14CE3F for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 13:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 42700 invoked from network); 14 Apr 2023 20:25:24 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=a6ca.6439b6b4.k2304; bh=SYpeiKrWlQJTzq5bvOYtivi8DBc0G4GDjpLWa15hUCg=; b=eG72dVe7M7V+JycKkOwT003ZiSq5WGDnSCgSpiSR5xxRK7oZH5bwvKbokUCwJ8r3vtpPLZtoZF+ihFPTiuHDHBm2hdTC6UF0SbAKHagLL+yrmXoYH3wZSL4XCEMAAk84oN2zfc2g5jyfuY/btvWzxrpXOj5R9jmAsJ25ttwwtOUEG9evYUkZcLUrvkYmVt4GJIIvi8fVdsNsd6BfXumSCt+LRwOMrBT87IK8j8VonpeSfNaRPm7eojk1oCkqj/5iAkSUOrulF2S+LOEm0e/icPplKP2U3jrJuvaks8ia/yXH/BZFhFOJJ6A6DkMTJ0n3y0ELqPsWpVn+dIvihfydBQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=a6ca.6439b6b4.k2304; bh=SYpeiKrWlQJTzq5bvOYtivi8DBc0G4GDjpLWa15hUCg=; b=fp31lS5lSc4ui+5i8mv+eecQM5IWbtL4V7Ps7GnC/OmhBy/irOwhmKboZiFMq/ori3s/zVgC7xDtM2pJGrRJOia5n5Lk4TykIdLyHWzAr0f/tRVWxOGhEfGx/Z055Bwv7dYCGJ660QI018ekAI47vi3Br5GTkGqF8RquyntIRViB+CmdcZKeNOt4jaC1F4Xw2fG51N7okAHQuwXzbEIGPhAoyqijebTLDkwTn0hSCLSfkmPWfUhKGF/3kookFCPo7G3AU5ocV9/3sU+1wI5OAzM4S29UDlQxBUC763ZtuJGizOYWDD40B9nYDDQyv6Texka1j5ZoR8mgvWtccnt98w==
Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 14 Apr 2023 20:25:24 -0000
Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id D6B38BF246AA; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:25:22 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:25:22 -0400
Message-Id: <20230414202522.D6B38BF246AA@ary.qy>
From: John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
To: dmarc@ietf.org
Cc: dotzero@gmail.com
In-Reply-To: <CAJ4XoYftxv21D7mhXdRzg+f4Qo99Y=qcZ+eK5_PvPv62hVbM_A@mail.gmail.com>
Organization: Taughannock Networks
X-Headerized: yes
Cleverness: minimal
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/4Gn8eM3rf936D--7PqR1IFPvpmA>
Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and indirect mail flows
X-BeenThere: dmarc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting, and Compliance \(DMARC\)" <dmarc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dmarc/>
List-Post: <mailto:dmarc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 20:25:31 -0000

It appears that Dotzero  <dotzero@gmail.com> said:
>While the you part of "we" may not see any advantages, quite a few
>financials, greeting card sites, retailers AND many receivers have seen the
>advantages, including p=reject. ...

The advantages you see are certainly real but they're not about interoperability.

DMARC prevents a lot of mail from being delivered, the exact opposite
of interoperating. In your case at least, there are good reasons to
believe that the recipients wouldn't have wanted the mail, but that's
a separate question.  

I also think that you're kind of an edge case, with a mail stream that
you can characterize very exactly and a clear understanding of the
costs of the mail that gets lost.  People who know they have users
on mailing lists and publish p=reject anyway, not so much.

I'm with Scott, there's no question about the interop problem so
document it and move on.

R's,
John