Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and indirect mail flows
Mark Alley <mark.alley@tekmarc.com> Sun, 09 April 2023 01:17 UTC
Return-Path: <mark.alley@tekmarc.com>
X-Original-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434A1C151B31 for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 8 Apr 2023 18:17:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.096
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=tekmarc.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pcXNHxO3CHOG for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 8 Apr 2023 18:17:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-yb1-xb43.google.com (mail-yb1-xb43.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b43]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96B8BC14CE52 for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Sat, 8 Apr 2023 18:17:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-yb1-xb43.google.com with SMTP id v7so301850ybi.0 for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:17:28 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tekmarc.com; s=google; t=1681003047; x=1683595047; h=in-reply-to:from:references:to:content-language:subject:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WkVrYnGjqlSNOe4i0epqaSjGwIFHJ12DQgAQ6zQPZWI=; b=fheTegzX635VuVqS7+P4t7PAy9sjHRpY751wtLGg5WdSojU8RiUej1ncT/dVTDKDaZ E6FjrfOqRv3vbbpi32tnqwtnmBk+Qmg95fUccqMjwvqEklcXpojyEqwnts++Rj9WJE66 u9fUasnCvNmOeaxrwgnw3OuIZfC6ifycZ/Oz/Mrt/RHL1DG9jvW8FikHi4ACtaibEar9 0upmsTy1zQHbOPp938/HB4ryV05a6dA/j+0WTZJxx3ILWVmKR5g2670NgCvfmTnhYlrN pOhZUZl0jQuloqZRakgmvZu8je0N6syCGsXa8hzkL+cFkYinG18sOmtWdK6E6gWiAIez QpEA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681003047; x=1683595047; h=in-reply-to:from:references:to:content-language:subject:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WkVrYnGjqlSNOe4i0epqaSjGwIFHJ12DQgAQ6zQPZWI=; b=TF9wKGBat/kL4xw1vnr3OngHvi2Y0AskFKUuAxbl4Cu4DPYvR782LcDg+s56u2BJym Qw0Us+YfT8Lp0CxgDDKzD6M34283X+MftopLZsz5h0sRROQ6TFr9Ur0/jpa/VdprMIol S8/sH1OBXMG6yko1pETH2tuZFhzpRz2uLVpFUsDdXIjzgWyZJD9x5GlHVxg58fnYOID2 +E/lpDE5qGDciYZPxRICCbjKPrco0R/ZslpLyX/udzxFq/YFhCH8GqklXWGDjVRZ+cim 4WPY+cQDq2QWMxNn5WeoLq/sjr93Dh9VuPCloaO5ROzypBe+Fl0xGn+95kd+pe46mnjl jsrg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dY7dgz/XXsJH1VLlWW6cD8nuiVQCnGquMy7RoSlOqiUpTuiBNh VkCv1vYE5Qn9uf1BYJM8zumj6nh0/Ddr9dxwN5lHNV2yzdU=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bGXikX28mDzEKTbvfsFxwsg4XmkzaS1ZIxC7aiIawIoiMI8+YzvpbKRO89I2th9achs+Os3g==
X-Received: by 2002:a25:5886:0:b0:b8b:ee7b:b8e with SMTP id m128-20020a255886000000b00b8bee7b0b8emr8503601ybb.20.1681003046881; Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:17:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.2.20] (162-238-103-217.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net. [162.238.103.217]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b84-20020a256757000000b00b7767ca747fsm2113758ybc.28.2023.04.08.18.17.25 for <dmarc@ietf.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:17:26 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------fZAnOY0UxXNbEOkR7N1qfH4L"
Message-ID: <4a0dba74-3e25-b9cb-dd64-20bf04ae76ba@tekmarc.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2023 20:17:25 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: dmarc@ietf.org
References: <20230409005207.DCA8BBD1CC17@ary.qy>
From: Mark Alley <mark.alley@tekmarc.com>
In-Reply-To: <20230409005207.DCA8BBD1CC17@ary.qy>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/vvEnKaX_m3CkLneiTAy_cT4_d9o>
Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and indirect mail flows
X-BeenThere: dmarc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting, and Compliance \(DMARC\)" <dmarc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dmarc/>
List-Post: <mailto:dmarc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2023 01:17:32 -0000
Personally, I prefer the latter of the two, quoted below. "to preserve interoperability, domains SHOULD NOT publish p=reject unless they are [not general purpose]* domains" "Publishing DMARC records with restrictive policies does cause interoperability problems for some normal email usage patterns. Potential impacts MUST be considered before any domain publishes a restrictive policy." These two combined address how p=reject interoperability risks are considered on most [general purpose] domains today during implementation, while also making well-known the damage that a strict policy can cause to [some types] of indirect mail flow. On 4/8/2023 7:52 PM, John Levine wrote: > It appears that Scott Kitterman<sklist@kitterman.com> said: >> We could do I think any of the following and they are roughly semantically >> equivalent: >> >> [general purpose]* domains MUST NOT publish p=reject to preserve >> interoperability >> >> to preserve interoperability, domains SHOULD NOT publish p=reject unless they >> are [not general purpose]* domains >> >> which could be accompanied by: >> >> [not general purpose]* domains SHOULD determine their email authentication >> deployment is accurate and complete before publishing restrictive policies >> (p=quarntine or p=reject) to avoid interoperability issues. >> >> Publishing DMARC records with restrictive policies does cause interoperability >> problems for some normal email usage patterns. Potential impacts MUST be >> considered before any domain publishes a restrictive policy. >> >> * whatever the right formulation is, that's a related, but distinct (and I >> think less controversial question). > I'm OK with any of these. > > I do think it's important to make it clear that you lose interopn when > you publish a policy on a domain that's sending more than transactions > or spam. > > R's, > John > > _______________________________________________ > dmarc mailing list > dmarc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
- [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and indir… Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Mark Alley
- [dmarc-ietf] DMARCbis and M3AAWG Email Auth BCP (… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Brotman, Alex
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Brotman, Alex
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Pete Resnick
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Brotman, Alex
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Mark Alley
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Pete Resnick
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (no it's not) Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Understanding Ale's Abuse resear… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Mark Alley
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) Eric D. Williams
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS A DISTRACTION (it might … John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS A DISTRACTION (it might … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS A DISTRACTION (it might … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Mark Alley
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Neil Anuskiewicz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Matthäus Wander
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Neil Anuskiewicz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Matthäus Wander
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Mark Alley
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) Eric D. Williams
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] THIS IS ABUSE (it might be) John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Emanuel Schorsch
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Mark Alley
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Wei Chuang
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Mark Alley
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Scott Kitterman
- [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: Prop… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Brotman, Alex
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Search for some consensus, was: … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Proposed text for p=reject and i… Hector Santos
- [dmarc-ietf] Summary: Search for some consensus, … Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Summary: Search for some consens… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Summary: Search for some consens… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Summary: Search for some consens… Douglas Foster
- [dmarc-ietf] Add MLS/MLM subscription/submissions… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Add MLS/MLM subscription/submiss… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Add MLS/MLM subscription/submiss… Emanuel Schorsch
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Add MLS/MLM subscription/submiss… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Add MLS/MLM subscription/submiss… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Add MLS/MLM subscription/submiss… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Add MLS/MLM subscription/submiss… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Add MLS/MLM subscription/submiss… Brotman, Alex
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Add MLS/MLM subscription/submiss… Hector Santos
- [dmarc-ietf] Fwd: Summary: Search for some consen… Scott Kitterman