Re: bettering open source involvement
Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> Tue, 02 August 2016 07:51 UTC
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From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 09:51:18 +0200
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Subject: Re: bettering open source involvement
To: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
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On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On 2016-08-01, at 15:44, Livingood, Jason <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: >>> What if, in some future state, a given working group had a code repository and the working group was chartered not just with developing the standards but maintaining implementations of the code? >> >> as an addition to developing specs, that might be useful, if the spec remains the canonical standards output. >> >> "Go read the code" is not a useful answer if the code comes under a license (such as GPL) that taints the developer. (This is a major reason what we are doing IETF specs for DCTCP and CUBIC - so that they can be implemented without needing to read Linux kernel code.) > > Only 10 (?) years after full support for cubic entered the linux > kernel, and 3 after dctcp. > > If you define the efforts of this standards body as one to produce BSD > licensed code (which is basically the case), it will continue to lag > behind the bleeding edge and continue to become more and more > irrelevant. > > It's not just the deployed code in kernels that is a problem, it is > also that the best of the tools available to prototype new network > code are GPL'd. NS3, for example, is gpl. The routing protocols > incorporated in bird and quagga are GPL. Bind is BSD, but nominum is > proprietary and dnsmasq, GPLd. RIOT-OS, which is a leading contender for IoT stuff, is LGPL v2.1. https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT > There is increasingly no place to design, develop, and test new stuff > without starting from a gpl base. > > Worse, what happens here at ietf without use of these tools, is that > we end up with non-open-source code's experiments and results being > presented, without any means for an independent experimenter to > verify, reproduce, or extend. > > I think it would do a lot of semantic good if the ietf would stop > referring to "open source"[1] and always refer directly to the > licenses under which the code it works on that are allowed. There are > certainly new areas of interest like npv, etc, that are proceeding > with more vendor-friendly code licensing schemes, although I am > dubious about the performance benefits of moving all this stuff into > userspace, particularly when a seeming, primary, goal is to avoid > making free software, rather than engineering a good, clean, correct > engineering solution. > > It has been my hope that since the alice decision re patents (80% of > disputed software patents being invalidated), the rise of > organizations offering patent pool protections like the open > inventions network, and I think (IANAL), that apis cannot be > copyrighted in google vs oracle - ends up meaning that a developer can > not longer be polluted merely by looking at GPL'd code once in a > while. Because we do. > > The actual implementations of anything for anything else will tend to > vary so much due to API differences, and the expressible logic in the > algorithms themselves generally simple, that, particularly when the > authors of the code have presented it for standardization, under any > license, that the exposure to further risk is minimized. > > There are powerful advantages to the GPL (and LGPL[2]) over > "standardization". Notably there is an implicit patent grant, and > ongoing maintenance is enforced by an equal spirit of co-operation. > It's a better starting point than to hang with a sword of Damocles > over your head wondering if someone will patent something out from > under you. > > I wish we could just get on with making the internet a better place. > >> Lars > > [1] The GPL is a considered an acceptable license under the terms of > the open source inititatives: > > https://opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical > > [2] Of all the open source licenses out there, I happen to like the > LGPLv2 the best. It is only viral if you make changes to the library. > > > -- > Dave Täht > Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! > http://blog.cerowrt.org -- Dave Täht Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! http://blog.cerowrt.org
- Re: bettering open source involvement Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: bettering open source involvement Randy Bush
- Re: bettering open source involvement Harald Alvestrand
- Re: bettering open source involvement ned+ietf
- Re: bettering open source involvement Brian E Carpenter
- Re: bettering open source involvement Michael Richardson
- Re: bettering open source involvement Ted Lemon
- Re: bettering open source involvement Melinda Shore
- Re: bettering open source involvement Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: bettering open source involvement Alia Atlas
- Re: bettering open source involvement Alia Atlas
- RE: bettering open source involvement MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: bettering open source involvement joel jaeggli
- Re: bettering open source involvement Dave Taht
- Summary: bettering open source involvement S Moonesamy
- Re: bettering open source involvement Michael Richardson
- Re: bettering open source involvement Dave Taht
- Re: bettering open source involvement Philip Homburg
- Re: bettering open source involvement Stephen Farrell
- Re: bettering open source involvement Dave Taht
- Re: bettering open source involvement Randy Bush
- Re: bettering open source involvement Brian E Carpenter
- Re: bettering open source involvement Michael Richardson
- Re: bettering open source involvement Ted Lemon
- Re: bettering open source involvement Yoav Nir
- Re: bettering open source involvement Dave Taht
- Re: bettering open source involvement Riccardo Bernardini
- Re: bettering open source involvement Stephen Farrell
- Re: bettering open source involvement Eggert, Lars
- Re: bettering open source involvement Dave Taht
- Re: bettering open source involvement Dave Taht
- Re: bettering open source involvement Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: bettering open source involvement Brian E Carpenter
- Re: bettering open source involvement Doug Ewell
- Re: bettering open source involvement Brian E Carpenter
- Re: bettering open source involvement Eggert, Lars
- Re: bettering open source involvement Paul Wouters
- Re: bettering open source involvement Joel M. Halpern
- Re: bettering open source involvement Alia Atlas
- Re: bettering open source involvement Livingood, Jason
- Re: bettering open source involvement Livingood, Jason
- Re: bettering open source involvement Livingood, Jason
- Re: bettering open source involvement Ted Lemon
- Re: bettering open source involvement Brian E Carpenter
- Re: bettering open source involvement Randy Bush
- Re: bettering open source involvement Dave Taht
- Re: bettering open source involvement HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: bettering open source involvement Brian E Carpenter
- RE: bettering open source involvement MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: bettering open source involvement Randy Bush
- Re: bettering open source involvement Melinda Shore
- Re: bettering open source involvement Andy Bierman
- Re: bettering open source involvement Stephen Farrell
- RE: bettering open source involvement MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: bettering open source involvement Stephen Farrell
- Re: bettering open source involvement Alia Atlas
- Re: bettering open source involvement Alia Atlas
- Re: bettering open source involvement Riccardo Bernardini
- Re: bettering open source involvement Dave Taht
- RE: bettering open source involvement MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: bettering open source involvement Melinda Shore
- Re: bettering open source involvement Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: bettering open source involvement Brian E Carpenter
- Re: bettering open source involvement Alia Atlas
- Re: bettering open source involvement S Moonesamy
- Re: bettering open source involvement Michael Richardson
- Re: bettering open source involvement Octavio Alvarez
- Re: bettering open source involvement Riccardo Bernardini
- RE: bettering open source involvement MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: bettering open source involvement Melinda Shore
- Re: bettering open source involvement Suzanne Woolf
- Re: bettering open source involvement Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: bettering open source involvement Riccardo Bernardini
- bettering open source involvement Dave Taht