Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF 108
Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com> Thu, 11 June 2020 00:18 UTC
Return-Path: <olejacobsen@me.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C8B93A0CA6 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:18:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=me.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mNpkg9NknydY for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:18:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mr85p00im-ztdg06011201.me.com (mr85p00im-ztdg06011201.me.com [17.58.23.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D48CE3A158D for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:18:35 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=me.com; s=1a1hai; t=1591834715; bh=K3hKaTJDtxBxn6q0Y36OXbGxeblXvKlV9I9vqFd0+HM=; h=Content-Type:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=j29ZA3mQOBNF7DANOPkR+g9gXWzYshkp3P74HRo0AOMS9Abla7zpp50hZZ0tTTSp6 V/Y7mEVD4aGaKP0wjSF2eOPIM+nTwChWzK+mkA9K8oPAnYmKy/7wPIp3kZNXhEY/0E YI+9Rzdqh9HMrZgbuM5XgbX8UBOqXvE8nWbzP++/PvMngfEIce9GaCxalZv19km8X8 wigq0t5sOmrBx3RYUNeDccsuMjsjt0nApoTaCV6EoiiIISKVH3s54FLmf59wE/Tfeu iRTctjRAtfgGsIZqs3q2ks7aSS4isHayrB+LF/DaK3VdcLWQucz+Nh5sb7CtK0uOW3 Tcv7SiiG/IzdQ==
Received: from [192.168.1.133] (157-131-170-137.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net [157.131.170.137]) by mr85p00im-ztdg06011201.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49C2940078B; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:18:35 +0000 (UTC)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\))
Subject: Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF 108
From: Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAKr6gn15p6ALJ4mQNwU6miBbfJZdVVWkrNQBc0PLmjs3eaXtkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:18:34 -0700
Cc: Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com>, "ietf108planning@ietf.org" <ietf108planning@ietf.org>, ietf <ietf@ietf.org>, "exec-director@ietf.org" <exec-director@ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <26D30DAE-C947-4E7B-80C4-90BCC074C178@me.com>
References: <35fb0076-a240-096a-de7f-280d5e7ad1e3@cs.tcd.ie> <0713E4D5-BAAE-44B5-840B-0A25E0399289@nohats.ca> <CAKr6gn15p6ALJ4mQNwU6miBbfJZdVVWkrNQBc0PLmjs3eaXtkQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-06-10_13:2020-06-10, 2020-06-10 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=2 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2004280000 definitions=main-2006110000
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/s7c7XxELhEvpLTANV82jqthBeB0>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:18:37 -0000
I agree 100% with George and would just add NANOG to the list of meetings that went from f2f to online. NANOG used a cute “enter coupon FREE at at checkout” approach which then discounted the fee to $0.00. Most of all, it seems to me that the timing aspect of this decision is all wrong. It really doesn’t seem that long ago that we had IETF 107 go online followed shortly thereafter by various lockdowns all over the world. I agree that the issue is not so much the actual fee as it is a change in model and the perception of our open process. Those active dedicated participants who would normally attend in person will probably still brave the timezone challenge and attend, while “lurkers” and observers who are otherwise unable to attend might just not bother if they have to pay. At the end of the day, I do not think that is good for our community. One datapoint: The RIPE meeting which went “virtual” in May had *record* attendance (and no fee). Ole > On 10 Jun 2020, at 17:01, George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote: > > It would be entirely normal for a body which is not primarily about > earning revenue, to incur the risk of LOSING revenue in a significant > change from f2f -> online, in order to understand the nature of the > problem. This would not be incorrect. Its a decision an LLC can take: > incur some costs, to understand your problem. Its a capped risk. It > cannot exceed the loss of revenue of the total number of IETF > participants. (that is btw a loss of income, not necessarily a loss > running the meeting. So it could arguably be called an opportunty cost > more than a loss) > > So, I would actually expect an un-capped fee waiver to be available > and to base the worst-case risk side of 'how many waivers do we need > to fund' on how many people elect to take the option. > > I haven't yet seen a cost model which explains how the free > participants remotely represent a cost to the IETF to run. Is there a > volume based charge in Meetcho? Is there a volume based cost to the > infrastructure to run the web-casting? > > I note that every meeting I have attended online this year (RIPE, DNS > OARC32 (I am on the board) and the up-coming ICANN RoW) have been > entirely free. Two of the three examples would normally charge. > > I simply don't understand how either the LLC or any other body decided > there had to be a limit on "free" noting that many of us expect to > pay, but an uncounted number of us might suffer financial hardship > which in previous times, was unassessed and hidden in 'remote > participation is free' models. > > I think this is a huge departure from our norms. I would have expected > this to be discussed. > > -G > Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher The Internet Protocol Journal Office: +1 415-550-9433 Cell: +1 415-370-4628 Web: protocoljournal.org E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com E-mail: ole@protocoljournal.org Skype: organdemo
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Toerless Eckert
- Re: Registration open for IETF 108 Dan Romascanu
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Jay Daley
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Jay Daley
- Re: Registration open for IETF 108 Ish Sookun
- Re: Registration open for IETF 108 John C Klensin
- Re: Registration open for IETF 108 Livingood, Jason
- RE: Registration open for IETF 108 Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Bajpai, Vaibhav
- Re: Registration open for IETF 108 Mary B
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Livingood, Jason
- Re: Registration open for IETF 108 Mary B
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Registration open for IETF 108 Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Registration open for IETF 108 Livingood, Jason
- Re: Registration open for IETF 108 Ish Sookun
- Re: Registration open for IETF 108 Ish Sookun
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Mary B
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Paul Wouters
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … George Michaelson
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Colin Perkins
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Colin Perkins
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … John Levine
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Jay Daley
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Jay Daley
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Jay Daley
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Ish Sookun
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Alexa Morris
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Randy Bush
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … John C Klensin
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Jay Daley
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Tim Chown
- RE: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Jay Daley
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … tom petch
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Corinne Cath
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … John C Klensin
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Colin Perkins
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Corinne Cath
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Gurshabad Grover
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … tom petch
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Bob Hinden
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Pete Resnick
- RE: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Lucy Lynch
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Michael Richardson
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Russ Housley
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Mary B
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Michael Thomas
- RE: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Mary B
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … John Levine
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Michael StJohns
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Jay Daley
- RE: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … John C Klensin
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Toerless Eckert
- Re: Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for I… tom petch
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Jay Daley
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Toerless Eckert
- RE: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Michael Richardson
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Randy Bush
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Carsten Bormann
- RE: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Tim Chown
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … Jay Daley
- Re: [Ietf108planning] Registration open for IETF … S Moonesamy