Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and requirements
Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> Tue, 28 June 2011 06:38 UTC
Return-Path: <emil@sip-communicator.org>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C984321F866B for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:38:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vHAtd9Nl4TO3 for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:38:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A755221F863E for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:38:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by wyj26 with SMTP id 26so4147955wyj.31 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:38:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.227.167.129 with SMTP id q1mr6144828wby.101.1309243089144; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:38:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from porcinet.local (shm67-5-88-165-90-188.fbx.proxad.net [88.165.90.188]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fi5sm4600633wbb.39.2011.06.27.23.38.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:38:08 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <4E0976CE.5060206@jitsi.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 08:38:06 +0200
From: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>
Organization: Jitsi
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; bg; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110616 Thunderbird/3.1.11
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
References: <blu152-w313AC2093422E0C005708093570@phx.gbl>, <4E090781.20308@jitsi.org> <BLU152-w406463965676BD0CAD7AA993570@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <BLU152-w406463965676BD0CAD7AA993570@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and requirements
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 06:38:13 -0000
На 28.06.11 01:14, Bernard Aboba написа: >> Well, if ICE is part of the browser we could condition sending such data >> on the successful termination of ICE processing with the intended >> destination. Same as with RTP. Wouldn't this work? > > It depends on the exact requirements. > > There has already been discussion of relaxing the ICE requirement so as > to better enable backward compatibility with legacy implementations I supposed I missed the discussion on dropping ICE. However, I don't quite understand the issue with legacy implementations. If they are not using ICE then they are most probably relying on server-side relaying techniques such as latching. If that's the case then rtcweb clients would establish sessions with a server which would be the one required to do ICE (or ICE lite) rather than talking directly to the remote party. This does indeed require the server to support ICE (lite) but is this really an issue? > (e.g. using RTCP instead). Not sure I understand. Is someone using RTCP for NAT traversal and connectivity establishment? > There is also a potential backward compatibility requirement for > non-media data, which will be even more difficult, since ICE (or Jingle > or SDP) is not routinely used today (think online gaming), and the > volume is potentially quite heavy so that gateways may represent a > significant burden. Same as above. If they weren't using ICE before then they were either relaying through a server that can now take care of ICE (lite), or they were using a home-grown ICE variant which wouldn't be compatible anyway. Am I missing something? > So before saying that ICE would "solve the problem", it's important to > understand what exactly the problem is. > > Are we talking about sending arbitrary data-grams in transactional > exchanges? Or perhaps text encoded in RTP? Or maybe data in a > specified encoding (e.g. not RTP or arbitrary datagrams) so as to > prevent spoofing? > > Are there multiple use cases here, each with slightly different > requirements? Right. Can we then agree that most use cases would be similar to a regular VoIP session without the limitation of putting RTP inside packets? Emil -- http://jitsi.org
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Jonathan Rosenberg
- [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and req… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Christopher Blizzard
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Manuel Simoni
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Manuel Simoni
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Christopher Blizzard
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data service… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data ser… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data ser… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data ser… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data ser… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data ser… Dzonatas Sol
- [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Serge Lachapelle
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Serge Lachapelle
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Emil Ivov
- [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realiable … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Serge Lachapelle
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Serge Lachapelle
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Justin Uberti