Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilities (was Re: Guestroom Network not under NOC Control)
Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net> Wed, 30 July 2008 16:13 UTC
Return-Path: <72attendees-bounces@ietf.org>
X-Original-To: 72attendees-archive@ietf.org
Delivered-To: ietfarch-72attendees-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6783A6C30; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:13:27 -0700 (PDT)
X-Original-To: 72attendees@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: 72attendees@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B980A3A6BF6 for <72attendees@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XXPDch+aPF7E for <72attendees@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:49:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (mail.mipassoc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1:76:0:ffff:4834:7146]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2795228C311 for <72attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:49:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [130.129.22.125] ([130.129.22.125]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m6UEmt9c019578 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:48:57 -0700
Message-ID: <48907F57.5090308@bbiw.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:48:55 +0100
From: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>
Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Ole Jacobsen <ole@cisco.com>
References: <C4B41B20.76FCE%jonne.soininen@nsn.com> <94A3C924-DB32-43B1-B9F5-66C54EA32926@muada.com> <1217326884.3851.12.camel@victoria.pingtel.com> <488F4098.1040106@dcrocker.net> <Pine.GSO.4.63.0807290926120.17270@pita.cisco.com> <48905D65.303@dcrocker.net> <Pine.GSO.4.63.0807300613090.17168@pita.cisco.com>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.63.0807300613090.17168@pita.cisco.com>
X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92/7891/Wed Jul 30 03:03:53 2008 on sbh17.songbird.com
X-Virus-Status: Clean
X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:48:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:13:23 -0700
Cc: 72attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilities (was Re: Guestroom Network not under NOC Control)
X-BeenThere: 72attendees@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion list for the attendees of IETF 72 meeting." <72attendees.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/72attendees>, <mailto:72attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/private/72attendees>
List-Post: <mailto:72attendees@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:72attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/72attendees>, <mailto:72attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
Sender: 72attendees-bounces@ietf.org
Errors-To: 72attendees-bounces@ietf.org
Ole, This script that you and I are following has become a cliche. To break out of it and conduct serious discussion, we need to think harder about underlying assumptions, as well as treating asserted data with some skepticism. Ole Jacobsen wrote: > De-coupling the two issues is a fine idea on paper and in my > experience almost unworkable in practice. Hosts DO want some > say in where we meet and they DO want to be near a place where > they can provide "local" support (if only from a remote office). 1. You are quite wrong. Most conferences, association meetings, and the like, choose a venue independent of sponsorship. Hence sponsorship is about sponsoring, not about doing the grunt work. Long ago, we developed a meeting model based on some coupling of roles and services, which are so entrenched any attempt to suggest changing it gets responses that are firm, reflexive and not supported by the facts. Responding rigidly and defensively is not a good way to pursue necessary changes. It is a good way to ensure that persistent problems persist. 2. The IETF insists on a model that performs what it claims is an optimization when a) it's highly local while ignoring larger inefficiencies, and b) probably isn't all that optimal locally. When looking at persistent problems, improvement is never achieved by starting to defend core assumptions that are, in fact, the primary reasons for the problem. By insisting that the IETF start with choosing a host, most of our meeting venue problems ensue. It ensures all of the instabilities we repeatedly experience. It ensures hidden costs -- thereby making claims of reduced cost, by virtue of having hosts perform tasks off the IETF's books -- that offset supposed savings. Note, for example, the substantially higher cost of taxis because the Dublin facility is so remote. While taxi cost might seem a silly, small point, it becomes a large one when applied to the entire population of attendees, as well as applied repeatedly if attendees want to get elsewhere. (Yes, the added bus service helps, but not enough.) When this core error is highlighted, we always get series of tautological arguments attempting to assert that the error is required. It isn't. There is more than sufficient experience in the rest of the world to show that the error need not be made. > I would be wonderful if we had a pool of money from lots of > vendors that simply took care of all costs and logistics and > we then just get to pick the venue. Oh, wait, there is such > a pool, it's called "Organizational Membership in ISOC". Again, the IETF walked down a path that created a strategic problem and would rather continue an operational mode that ensure significant IETF meeting problems periodically, rather than fix the underlying problem. In this case, I think that trade association funding details could be relevant: They have both "membership" and "sponsorship" and it works fine. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net _______________________________________________ 72attendees mailing list 72attendees@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/72attendees
- [72attendees] Guestroom Network not under NOC Con… LANGE Andrew
- Re: [72attendees] Guestroom Network not under NOC… Balazs Lengyel
- [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilities (w… Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo)
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART)
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Thomas Walsh
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Bill Fenner
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Eric Gray
- Re: [72attendees] Guestroom Network not under NOC… Paul Hoffman
- [72attendees] Found - YubiKey Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Lloyd Wood
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Thomas Froment
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dale Worley
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo)
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- [72attendees] Moving to social event gregory.cauchie
- Re: [72attendees] Moving to social event Francis Dupont
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Ed Jankiewicz
- Re: [72attendees] Moving to social event Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Rosen, Brian
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Christopher LILJENSTOLPE
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo)
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Randall Gellens
- [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs (was… John C Klensin
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … John C Klensin
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Dale Worley
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Mary Barnes
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Ted Lemon
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Ondřej Surý
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Patrik Fältström
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Ondřej Surý