Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions
creed@opengeospatial.org Fri, 09 April 2010 17:53 UTC
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Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:53:18 -0400
From: creed@opengeospatial.org
To: "MUSGROVE, CHARLES P (ATTCINW)" <CM8655@att.com>
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Cc: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org, earlywarning@ietf.org, "DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)" <bd2985@att.com>, "DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS)" <md3135@att.com>
Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions
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As I was thinking - there are multiple levels of standardization work going on in Europe. The OGC community is dealing at the application level - not the infrastructure level. Thanks! Carl > Europe is looking at a warning system based on the 3GPP Public Warning > System (PWS) based on cell broadcast. They are studying the US-based CMAS > as a model for their PWS with a long-term goal of supporting PWS for > international roamers (among European countries as well as to/from > US/Asia/elsewhere). The Netherlands is already moving toward > implementation of a cell broadcast-based system. > > Regards, > Peter Musgrove > > -----Original Message----- > From: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of creed@opengeospatial.org > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:09 AM > To: DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW) > Cc: DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS); earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org; > earlywarning@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions > > In Europe they are working toward a Pan-European alerting and warning > infrastructure with full interoperability. However, I am not sure at what > level in the "stack" this work is being done - perhaps more at the higher > levels in the application arena. I do not see discussions on L2 or CMAS or > whatever. The European programs are initially being funded as part of the > FP 6 and 7 initiatives. Check out ORCHESTRA > (http://www.eu-orchestra.org/), GMES/SAFER > (http://www.emergencyresponse.eu/site/FO/scripts/myFO_accueil.php?lang=EN) > and SANY (http://www.sany-ip.eu/). SANY is interesting because the focus > is on integrating sensor alerts into a modeling, warning, and alerting > infrastructure. > > Similar activities are occurring in Asia, such as Debris Flow Monitoring > and Alerting in Taiwan, Tsunami Alerting in Indonesia, and earthquake > warning in Japan. > > Regards > > Carl > > > > > >> Brian - >> >> If "no one" is asking for interoperability (and I am not sure who "no >> one" >> is :-) ) then I agree this can be a somewhat peaceful co-existence of >> mandated services (CMAS, EAS, iPAWS, DMOpen vs a market driven service >> that is not and will not be designed with the intention to integrate >> into >> or interoperate with services such as CMAS. >> >> However, because of the potential for confusion by the reader and >> regulators, all we are asking is that the charter clearly state this >> fact >> that apparently we are in agreement on. >> >> Can we craft some language for the charter that emphasizes this? >> >> Brian D. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf Of Brian Rosen >> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 6:34 AM >> To: Padma Valluri >> Cc: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org; SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW); >> earlywarning@ietf.org; DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS) >> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions >> >> Because it¹s pretty hard to define ³interoperability² with L2 mechanisms >> that deliver alerts. One of the biggest problems I have with most >> existing >> L2 specific mechanisms is that they assume they are the only way alerts >> are >> received. As a result, if you get an alert from some other mechanism, >> you >> have no idea if its the same alert or a different one. Your UI can't >> help >> you at all with this. One of the things I think we need is some ID >> mechanism which is protocol agnostic and simply serves as the way to >> know >> if >> you got an alert from multiple sources that they are the same alert. >> >> Actually, no one is asking for interoperability. They are discussing >> various forms of peaceful co-existence. Designing the protocol to take >> advantage of some kinds of L2 packet delivery mechanisms may be possible >> however. >> >> Brian >> >> >> On 4/8/10 9:18 AM, "Padma Valluri" <pvalluri@csc.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> I'm not sure what "use" means here other than to imply >>> interoperable/interworking with existing capabilities that are more >>> efficient >>> in certain segments of the network and deployed already. Why can't we >>> be >>> up >>> front about making the interoperabilty as one of the main requirements >>> of this >>> charter to provide an end-to-end solution? >>> >>> thanks, >>> Padma . >>> >>> >>> From: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> >>> To: Richard Barnes <rbarnes@bbn.com>, "SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW)" >>> <DS2225@att.com> >>> Cc: earlywarning@ietf.org, "DOLLY, MARTIN C \(ATTLABS\)" >>> <md3135@att.com> >>> Date: 04/07/2010 05:55 PM >>> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not bothered by the first part. I don't like the last phrase, >>> because >>> I'm not sure we should specifically describe such capabilities, and it >>> may >>> not be a gateway. How about changing the last sentence to "A goal of >>> the >>> work will be to be able to use layer-2 specific mechanisms, where >>> available, >>> to minimize load on the network." >>> >>> >>> On 4/7/10 5:41 PM, "Richard Barnes" <rbarnes@bbn.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Ok, I can grant that that's something that's not clearly explained in >>>> the current charter. However, it's also an issue that will tend to be >>>> layer-2 specific. How about something like this: >>>> >>>> " >>>> Emergency alerts that are delivered to large numbers of endpoints can >>>> put a large load on the network, particularly when many affected users >>>> are on the same local network (e.g., the 100,000 attendees at a >>>> sporting event). This working group will consider mechanisms for >>>> minimizing this load, such as IP multicast. In particular, some >>>> approaches have been developed to handle emergency alerting in >>>> different types networks, and it will be a goal of this working group >>>> to facilitate interoperability with these approaches, for example, to >>>> enable gateways to relay messages from this Internet mechanism into a >>>> specific layer-2 channel. >>>> " >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:47 PM, SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW) wrote: >>>> >>>>> It is deficient because it does not take into account the impacts >>>>> that >>>>> will occur to the various access technologies. All access >>>>> technologies >>>>> do not have the same capacity, bandwidth, etc. Therefore any design >>>>> that >>>>> has the potential to send information to all citizens within an area >>>>> via >>>>> any variety of access technologies needs to consider these factors. >>>>> For >>>>> example, consider the scenario of trying to send an alert to the >>>>> 100,000 >>>>> fans at a college football game. >>>>> >>>>> The current draft charter of ATOCA does not address this which is why >>>>> the additional sentences for the second paragraph were proposed. >>>>> >>>>> DeWayne >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com <mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com> >>>>> ] >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 1:38 PM >>>>> To: SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW) >>>>> Cc: DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW); Henning Schulzrinne; DOLLY, MARTIN C >>>>> (ATTLABS); earlywarning@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions >>>>> >>>>> Could you please clarify how you believe it to be deficient? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:37 PM, SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW) wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My "personal" view is that the charter as currently written is not >>>>>> correct or adequate. >>>>>> >>>>>> DeWayne >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org >>>>>> [mailto:earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org >>>>>> <mailto:earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org> ] On Behalf Of DALY, BRIAN K >>>>>> (ATTCINW) >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 1:33 PM >>>>>> To: Henning Schulzrinne; DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS) >>>>>> Cc: earlywarning@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions >>>>>> >>>>>> Fine but my "personal" view does not change. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian Daly >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu >>>>>> <mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu> ] >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 1:31 PM >>>>>> To: DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS) >>>>>> Cc: DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW); earlywarning@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions >>>>>> >>>>>> The point is that people speak as individuals in the IETF and there >>>>>> is >>>>>> no particular notion that a corporate opinion has any more weight >>>>>> than >>>>>> that of any individual. Thus, stating a corporate opinion is out of >>>>>> place and against IETF custom and convention. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Henning >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:28 PM, DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> They sure do, look at everyone's badge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org <earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org> >>>>>>> To: DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW) >>>>>>> Cc: earlywarning@ietf.org <earlywarning@ietf.org> >>>>>>> Sent: Wed Apr 07 16:21:20 2010 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I didn't know that the IETF had corporate opinions. But maybe the >>>>>>> IETF >>>>>> rules have changed recently? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Henning >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:13 PM, DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW) wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For the record, AT&T is in opposition to removing the last >>>>>>>> sentence. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brian Daly >>>>>>>> AT&T >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> earlywarning mailing list >>>>>>> earlywarning@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> earlywarning mailing list >>>>>> earlywarning@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> earlywarning mailing list >>>>>> earlywarning@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> earlywarning mailing list >>>> earlywarning@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> earlywarning mailing list >>> earlywarning@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> earlywarning mailing list >> earlywarning@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> _______________________________________________ >> earlywarning mailing list >> earlywarning@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > earlywarning mailing list > earlywarning@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning > >
- [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discuss… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… ken carlberg
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Brian Rosen
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Marc Linsner
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Marc Linsner
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Marc Linsner
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Brian Rosen
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Marc Linsner
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… MUSGROVE, CHARLES P (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… James M. Polk
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… James M. Polk
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Brian Rosen
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Janet P Gunn
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Brian Rosen
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Janet P Gunn
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… ken carlberg
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Padma Valluri
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Brian Rosen
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Padma Valluri
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… creed
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… MUSGROVE, CHARLES P (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… creed
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… creed