Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions
creed@opengeospatial.org Fri, 09 April 2010 23:27 UTC
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Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:27:29 -0400
From: creed@opengeospatial.org
To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: "DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)" <bd2985@att.com>, "DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS)" <md3135@att.com>, "earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org" <earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org>, "earlywarning@ietf.org" <earlywarning@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions
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Keith - Apologies. You are correct. I am personally not aware of any. As you and others have stated, there are definitely discussions and work being done at other levels in the warning/alerting standards stack - such as using CMAS as a starting point. Multi-language is definitely something the OGC Members are tuned into. Thanks! Carl > Carl, I think the problem is that your statement: "I do not see > discussions on L2 or CMAS or whatever", implies on first reading that > there are none, rather than you are not aware of them. > > Indeed there are activities taking place on trialing cell broadcast for > such alerts, and at least the intent I was seeing from the people involved > in this was that they would be looking to activities in ETSI to channel > this work into 3GPP, and that they would be using the CMAS work as a > starting point. One key problem to solve is that in multilingual > countries, the alert would have to be delivered in multiple languages - > not a problem except procedures need to be defined to cycle round such > messages, which does not exist in CMAS at the moment. I also gathered some > clear statements that they wanted a solution independent of any work that > took place elsewhere on other infrastructures. > > So to me this emphasises that the ATOCO work has to progess in a manner > that works in a complementary fashion to other mechanisms already in > deployment, and which in certain scenarios may be the only reliable > mechanism of delivering the alert, and not just assume from its charter > that the mechanism it provides when it is finished is the only fish in the > pond. > > regards > > Keith > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> creed@opengeospatial.org >> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 6:53 PM >> To: MUSGROVE, CHARLES P (ATTCINW) >> Cc: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org; earlywarning@ietf.org; >> DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW); DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS) >> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions >> >> As I was thinking - there are multiple levels of >> standardization work going on in Europe. The OGC community is >> dealing at the application level >> - not the infrastructure level. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Carl >> > Europe is looking at a warning system based on the 3GPP >> Public Warning >> > System (PWS) based on cell broadcast. They are studying the >> US-based >> > CMAS as a model for their PWS with a long-term goal of >> supporting PWS >> > for international roamers (among European countries as well >> as to/from >> > US/Asia/elsewhere). The Netherlands is already moving toward >> > implementation of a cell broadcast-based system. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Peter Musgrove >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org >> > [mailto:earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org] >> > On Behalf Of creed@opengeospatial.org >> > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:09 AM >> > To: DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW) >> > Cc: DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS); earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org; >> > earlywarning@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions >> > >> > In Europe they are working toward a Pan-European alerting >> and warning >> > infrastructure with full interoperability. However, I am >> not sure at >> > what level in the "stack" this work is being done - perhaps more at >> > the higher levels in the application arena. I do not see >> discussions >> > on L2 or CMAS or whatever. The European programs are >> initially being >> > funded as part of the FP 6 and 7 initiatives. Check out ORCHESTRA >> > (http://www.eu-orchestra.org/), GMES/SAFER >> > >> (http://www.emergencyresponse.eu/site/FO/scripts/myFO_accueil.php?lang >> > =EN) and SANY (http://www.sany-ip.eu/). SANY is interesting because >> > the focus is on integrating sensor alerts into a modeling, warning, >> > and alerting infrastructure. >> > >> > Similar activities are occurring in Asia, such as Debris Flow >> > Monitoring and Alerting in Taiwan, Tsunami Alerting in >> Indonesia, and >> > earthquake warning in Japan. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Carl >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> Brian - >> >> >> >> If "no one" is asking for interoperability (and I am not >> sure who "no >> >> one" >> >> is :-) ) then I agree this can be a somewhat peaceful >> co-existence of >> >> mandated services (CMAS, EAS, iPAWS, DMOpen vs a market driven >> >> service that is not and will not be designed with the intention to >> >> integrate into or interoperate with services such as CMAS. >> >> >> >> However, because of the potential for confusion by the reader and >> >> regulators, all we are asking is that the charter clearly >> state this >> >> fact that apparently we are in agreement on. >> >> >> >> Can we craft some language for the charter that emphasizes this? >> >> >> >> Brian D. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org >> >> [mailto:earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org] >> >> On Behalf Of Brian Rosen >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 6:34 AM >> >> To: Padma Valluri >> >> Cc: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org; SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW); >> >> earlywarning@ietf.org; DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS) >> >> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions >> >> >> >> Because it¹s pretty hard to define ³interoperability² with L2 >> >> mechanisms that deliver alerts. One of the biggest >> problems I have >> >> with most existing >> >> L2 specific mechanisms is that they assume they are the only way >> >> alerts are received. As a result, if you get an alert from >> some other >> >> mechanism, you have no idea if its the same alert or a >> different one. >> >> Your UI can't help you at all with this. One of the >> things I think >> >> we need is some ID mechanism which is protocol agnostic and simply >> >> serves as the way to know if you got an alert from >> multiple sources >> >> that they are the same alert. >> >> >> >> Actually, no one is asking for interoperability. They are >> discussing >> >> various forms of peaceful co-existence. Designing the protocol to >> >> take advantage of some kinds of L2 packet delivery >> mechanisms may be >> >> possible however. >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> On 4/8/10 9:18 AM, "Padma Valluri" <pvalluri@csc.com> wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm not sure what "use" means here other than to imply >> >>> interoperable/interworking with existing capabilities >> that are more >> >>> efficient in certain segments of the network and deployed >> already. >> >>> Why can't we be up front about making the interoperabilty >> as one of >> >>> the main requirements of this charter to provide an end-to-end >> >>> solution? >> >>> >> >>> thanks, >> >>> Padma . >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> From: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> >> >>> To: Richard Barnes <rbarnes@bbn.com>, "SENNETT, DEWAYNE A >> (ATTCINW)" >> >>> <DS2225@att.com> >> >>> Cc: earlywarning@ietf.org, "DOLLY, MARTIN C \(ATTLABS\)" >> >>> <md3135@att.com> >> >>> Date: 04/07/2010 05:55 PM >> >>> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discussions >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I'm not bothered by the first part. I don't like the >> last phrase, >> >>> because I'm not sure we should specifically describe such >> >>> capabilities, and it may not be a gateway. How about >> changing the >> >>> last sentence to "A goal of the work will be to be able to use >> >>> layer-2 specific mechanisms, where available, to minimize load on >> >>> the network." >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On 4/7/10 5:41 PM, "Richard Barnes" <rbarnes@bbn.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Ok, I can grant that that's something that's not clearly >> explained >> >>>> in the current charter. However, it's also an issue >> that will tend >> >>>> to be >> >>>> layer-2 specific. How about something like this: >> >>>> >> >>>> " >> >>>> Emergency alerts that are delivered to large numbers of >> endpoints >> >>>> can put a large load on the network, particularly when many >> >>>> affected users are on the same local network (e.g., the 100,000 >> >>>> attendees at a sporting event). This working group will >> consider >> >>>> mechanisms for minimizing this load, such as IP multicast. In >> >>>> particular, some approaches have been developed to >> handle emergency >> >>>> alerting in different types networks, and it will be a >> goal of this >> >>>> working group to facilitate interoperability with these >> approaches, >> >>>> for example, to enable gateways to relay messages from this >> >>>> Internet mechanism into a specific layer-2 channel. >> >>>> " >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:47 PM, SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW) wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> It is deficient because it does not take into account >> the impacts >> >>>>> that will occur to the various access technologies. All access >> >>>>> technologies do not have the same capacity, bandwidth, etc. >> >>>>> Therefore any design that has the potential to send >> information to >> >>>>> all citizens within an area via any variety of access >> technologies >> >>>>> needs to consider these factors. >> >>>>> For >> >>>>> example, consider the scenario of trying to send an >> alert to the >> >>>>> 100,000 fans at a college football game. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The current draft charter of ATOCA does not address >> this which is >> >>>>> why the additional sentences for the second paragraph >> were proposed. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> DeWayne >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com >> >>>>> <mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com> ] >> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 1:38 PM >> >>>>> To: SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW) >> >>>>> Cc: DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW); Henning Schulzrinne; >> DOLLY, MARTIN C >> >>>>> (ATTLABS); earlywarning@ietf.org >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text >> Discussions >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Could you please clarify how you believe it to be deficient? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:37 PM, SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW) wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> My "personal" view is that the charter as currently written is >> >>>>>> not correct or adequate. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> DeWayne >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>> From: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org >> >>>>>> [mailto:earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org >> >>>>>> <mailto:earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org> ] On Behalf Of >> DALY, BRIAN >> >>>>>> K >> >>>>>> (ATTCINW) >> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 1:33 PM >> >>>>>> To: Henning Schulzrinne; DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS) >> >>>>>> Cc: earlywarning@ietf.org >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text >> >>>>>> Discussions >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Fine but my "personal" view does not change. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Brian Daly >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>> From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu >> >>>>>> <mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu> ] >> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 1:31 PM >> >>>>>> To: DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS) >> >>>>>> Cc: DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW); earlywarning@ietf.org >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text >> >>>>>> Discussions >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The point is that people speak as individuals in the IETF and >> >>>>>> there is no particular notion that a corporate opinion has any >> >>>>>> more weight than that of any individual. Thus, stating a >> >>>>>> corporate opinion is out of place and against IETF custom and >> >>>>>> convention. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Henning >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:28 PM, DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS) wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> They sure do, look at everyone's badge >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>>>> From: earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org >> >>>>>>> <earlywarning-bounces@ietf.org> >> >>>>>>> To: DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW) >> >>>>>>> Cc: earlywarning@ietf.org <earlywarning@ietf.org> >> >>>>>>> Sent: Wed Apr 07 16:21:20 2010 >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text >> >>>>>>> Discussions >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I didn't know that the IETF had corporate opinions. But maybe >> >>>>>>> the IETF >> >>>>>> rules have changed recently? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Henning >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:13 PM, DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW) wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> For the record, AT&T is in opposition to removing the last >> >>>>>>>> sentence. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Brian Daly >> >>>>>>>> AT&T >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> earlywarning mailing list >> >>>>>>> earlywarning@ietf.org >> >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> >>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> earlywarning mailing list >> >>>>>> earlywarning@ietf.org >> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> >>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> earlywarning mailing list >> >>>>>> earlywarning@ietf.org >> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> >>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> earlywarning mailing list >> >>>> earlywarning@ietf.org >> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> >>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> earlywarning mailing list >> >>> earlywarning@ietf.org >> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> >>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> earlywarning mailing list >> >> earlywarning@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> earlywarning mailing list >> >> earlywarning@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > earlywarning mailing list >> > earlywarning@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> earlywarning mailing list >> earlywarning@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/earlywarning >> >
- [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Discuss… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… ken carlberg
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Brian Rosen
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Marc Linsner
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Marc Linsner
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Marc Linsner
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Brian Rosen
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Marc Linsner
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… MUSGROVE, CHARLES P (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… SENNETT, DEWAYNE A (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… James M. Polk
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… James M. Polk
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Brian Rosen
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Janet P Gunn
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Brian Rosen
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Janet P Gunn
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… ken carlberg
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Padma Valluri
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Brian Rosen
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… Padma Valluri
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DALY, BRIAN K (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… creed
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… MUSGROVE, CHARLES P (ATTCINW)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… creed
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [earlywarning] Finishing the Charter Text Dis… creed