Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Tue, 18 December 2007 18:32 UTC
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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 13:32:00 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: dcrocker@bbiw.net, Eric Rescorla <ekr@networkresonance.com>
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Subject: Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary
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--On Tuesday, 18 December, 2007 09:17 -0800 Dave Crocker <dhc2@dcrocker.net> wrote: >> P.S. I don't really understand how you envision this working. >> Are you thinking that people will be speaking during this >> period? It's hard to imagine anything more disruptive to >> having a plenary presentation or discussion than having >> everyone in the room busily focused on trying to unscrew >> their network. > > > +10. > > d/ > > ps. For those who have watched Klensin and me beat people over > the head, by noting the import that should be imparted by his > and my agreeing on an issue, they should equally note that my > concurrence with Eric on an issue of substance is vastly more > rare. Ok. While I had decided to just ignore most of this thread, the presence of three-way agreement is too much of an opportunity to pass up. A few observations, more to reinforce and possibly put a different stress on comments made by others than to say anything really new: (1) The only thing this exercise, as described, is going to prove is that we are skilled at shooting ourselves in the foot. We already know that, at least in the US, IPv6 is insufficiently deployed to provide a good base for communication and smooth interoperability fabric. We know that there are no IPv6 records in the root servers and that many of the root servers aren't widely connected to IPv6 networks. We know that most IPv6 use today involves tunnels between hosts or between network islands. Now we also know that skilled engineers and network operators are capable of configuring their way around those problems. But those who know how to do it know how to do it (and probably are doing it already). Inviting the rest of the community to try to sort things out in real-time in the plenary is silly at best. It will make the plenary useless and deprive us of the considerable advantages of being able to work together to resolve issues. If the IESG believes this sort of demonstration is important enough, cancel the plenary program, announce an IPv6 connectivity workshop for that time slot, and _maybe_ turn down the IPv4 network during that time. If you don't want to blow off the plenary, then schedule an IPv6 connectivity workshop for Sunday afternoon, maybe cancel most of the others, and announce it now so that people have time to plan flights. Or, as Dave suggested, wipe out the social and replace it with a workshop. If we really want an "eat our own dogfood" process, then no more socials, only connectivity workshops, until IPv6 is universally (or at least seamlessly for those who want it) deployed. Such workshops are events from which we could learn, and possibly even demonstrate to the outside world that the perceived problems can be overcome. Leslie's recent note (with a changed subject line) is, I believe the sensible one here. Let's not organize a demonstration whose outcome we know, or some strange way to punish those who are not already running IPv6. Let's try to figure out how we can do something constructive for the IETF community or the Internet and/or from which we can learn things we _don't_ know. If we can't do something constructive, let's not waste out time. There is one other issue that I would encourage people to think about. Reporters come to our meetings and attend plenaries. There are members of the reporter community, or their editors, who like only those stories that they can sensationalize. For them, this little "outage" results in one of two possible headlines: (i) Not even IETF can get IPv6 to work seamlessly. (ii) IPv6 is so complicated that only the IETF experts, struggling mightily, can get it to work in a drop-in environment. I don't know which one prefers, but neither is going to advance the universal deployment of IPv6 or do anything else good (other than selling a few more issues of something). Finally, speaking from a very personal perspective, I'm a strong supporter of IPv6. I've been giving talks in various places for years about the economic advantages of getting on board sooner or later and about strategies by while key organizations can actually make money on products that support the thing (more of them in the next 24 hours). But I'm not going to risk screwing up my production systems in the interests of a few hours of demo. And I'm not going to switch my production systems over to IPv6 (or even turn on dual-stack functions) until at least one of the ISPs I use is offering native IPv6 service with no tunnels or other workarounds. It turns out that the meeting sponsor, who I assume is one of those pushing this because of their leadership in IPv6, is one of my ISPs. Every time I hear --at an IETF meeting or elsewhere-- about their strong support for IPv6, I go home and call up my local representative and say "what do I do to get IPv6 turned on here". As long as the answer is, or is the equivalent of, "how do you spell 'IPv6'?", this sort of outage/demonstration is, for me, a joke because, if I can't get to my systems, my laptop might as well be off (modulo the opportunity to sit in on a bad attitude Jabber session if I can get that working and find a Jabber server that I can access over IPv6). And I share Ned's attitude toward people who decide they are better qualified to tell me how to spend my time than I am. john _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary IETF Chair
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joao Damas
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Pekka Savola
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Edward Lewis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Christian Huitema
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Francis Dupont
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mohsen Souissi
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stewart Bryant
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Edward Lewis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Marshall Eubanks
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Lixia Zhang
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Yaakov Stein
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Aki Niemi
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Avri Doria
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JW Atwood
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ralph Droms
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Russ Housley
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mehmet Ersue
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- IETF interoperability testing Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ralph Droms
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Randy Presuhn
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ned Freed
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Yaakov Stein
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eliot Lear
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Incentives for using v6 (was Re: IPv4 Outage Plan… Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- IPv6 deployment strategy RE: Incentives for using… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 P… Leslie Daigle
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephen Farrell
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Douglas Otis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephen Farrell
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Spencer Dawkins
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Pete Resnick
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF … Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Frank Ellermann
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Aki Niemi
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Richard Shockey
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Mark Andrews
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Brian E Carpenter
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Cullen Jennings
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Tony Finch
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Iljitsch van Beijnum
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary michael.dillon
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage David Conrad
- Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspectiv… Dan York
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- RE: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Ed Juskevicius
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Matt Mathis
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF … Elwyn Davies
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Cullen Jennings
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- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
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- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
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- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
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- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Martin Stiemerling
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood... Frank Ellermann
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Philip Matthews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Christian Huitema
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Conrad
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… TS Glassey
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary IETF Chair
- Re: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Pl… rpelletier
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- Re: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Pl… Ray Pelletier
- Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Pl… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary todd glassey
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Chris Lonvick
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Dave Crocker
- Re: [IAOC] Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newb… Marshall Eubanks