Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspective... Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary
Dan York <dyork@voxeo.com> Wed, 19 December 2007 17:54 UTC
Return-path: <ietf-bounces@ietf.org>
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J537S-0005SU-CJ; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:54:11 -0500
Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J537Q-0005S8-G7; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:54:08 -0500
Received: from mmail.voxeo.com ([66.193.54.208] helo=voxeo.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J537P-0000fc-D4; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:54:08 -0500
Received: from [75.68.245.43] (account dyork HELO [172.20.12.144]) by voxeo.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTPSA id 25703871; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:54:05 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3)
In-Reply-To: <20071219163953.GD29000@nsn.com>
References: <E1J3IFS-0002yV-CG@ietf.org> <200712142154.lBELs1ne090300@drugs.dv.isc.org> <200712181644.lBIGisBx090029@romeo.rtfm.com> <476800BC.5030504@dcrocker.net> <38033976C354EAB237181075@[192.168.101.1]> <p06250103c38dc78214d8@[74.134.5.163]> <20071218203932.GB21605@nsn.com> <20071219153031.B76645081A@romeo.rtfm.com> <20071219160710.GA29000@nsn.com> <20071219161717.0A5B75081A@romeo.rtfm.com> <20071219163953.GD29000@nsn.com>
Message-Id: <E9A3F0AE-CCD5-49BB-A2F4-1623CF5A86DA@voxeo.com>
From: Dan York <dyork@voxeo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:53:44 -0500
To: iaoc@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3)
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Scan-Signature: 43317e64100dd4d87214c51822b582d1
Cc:
Subject: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspective... Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1505947212=="
Errors-To: ietf-bounces@ietf.org
I have resisted adding anything to this debate about the IPv4 outage because people have already stated many of the good points. I particularly agreed with the points made that from a PR point-of-view this was not a great idea. Let me, though, add another perspective. What about all the newbies? What are they going to do during this time? At IETF 70, there was a question raised in one of the plenaries asking "How many of you are here for the first time?" and a significant number of hands went up. So let's look at this proposed IPv4 outage *during the plenary* from their perspective. Now, these newcomers may or may not have been subscribed to IETF mailing lists. They may or may not have attended the Sunday "intro to IETF for newcomers" session. They may or may not in fact be technical folks. They are probably still trying to figure out how all this works and why these people are humming, etc. So now we go into one of the plenary sessions and it is announced that "we will now shut down IPv4 and use only IPv6". The newcomer notices that: 1. A good percentage of the audience now dive into their laptops and become engrossed in diagnosing how their system works with IPv6. Side conversations are starting everywhere and occasional shouts of "Aha!" emerge from random groups. 2. Another percentage gets up and leaves in search of cookies. 3. Some percentage who missed reading the emails are suddenly upset because they lost their IPv4 connectivity. 4. Some percentage pops in their EVDO/EDGE/whatever cards and continues along as they were before doing their work and completely ignoring the plenary speakers. 5. Some percentage never showed up at the plenary because they went to join Richard Shockey at a local steak house. 6. Non-technical users or others who did not subscribe to IETF mailing lists are sitting there dumbfounded with a deer-caught-in-the- headlights look wondering what the heck is going on and if this has anything to do with the hums. 7. NO ONE is paying attention to the speaker(s) in front of the room during this part of the plenary. Now maybe the newcomer is all excited about IPv6 and so plunges into the technical troubleshooting. Maybe they go look for cookies or steak. Maybe they sit there dumb-founded. Probably they are left wondering what the point of this IETF "plenary" session really was. I don't dispute that such an exercise could be an interesting experiment in IPv6 connectivity (and one in which I would join), although in many cases I think we can already know the outcome. I just question the wisdom of doing it during the *plenary*. It would seem to me to be a great exercise to do at some other point during the week when the people who care can attend and identify issues, work through them, etc. Or we do as Ted suggested and just run an entire event with only IPv6 wireless. (and count how many people are using EVDO/EDGE cards!) It goes back to a more fundamental question - what is the purpose of the plenary? What information do we want to get across to attendees to the session? (And if we *do* plan an IPv4 outage, what is going to be talked about during the time of the outage?) My 2 cents, (now worth less than when I lived in Canada) Dan -- Dan York, CISSP, Director of Emerging Communication Technology Office of the CTO Voxeo Corporation dyork@voxeo.com Phone: +1-407-455-5859 Skype: danyork http://www.voxeo.com Blogs: http://blogs.voxeo.com http://www.disruptivetelephony.com Bring your web applications to the phone. Find out how at http://evolution.voxeo.com
_______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary IETF Chair
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joao Damas
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Pekka Savola
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Edward Lewis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Christian Huitema
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Francis Dupont
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mohsen Souissi
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stewart Bryant
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Edward Lewis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Marshall Eubanks
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Lixia Zhang
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Yaakov Stein
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Aki Niemi
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Avri Doria
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JW Atwood
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ralph Droms
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Russ Housley
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mehmet Ersue
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- IETF interoperability testing Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ralph Droms
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Randy Presuhn
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ned Freed
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Yaakov Stein
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eliot Lear
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Incentives for using v6 (was Re: IPv4 Outage Plan… Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- IPv6 deployment strategy RE: Incentives for using… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 P… Leslie Daigle
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephen Farrell
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Douglas Otis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephen Farrell
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Spencer Dawkins
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Pete Resnick
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF … Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Frank Ellermann
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Aki Niemi
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Richard Shockey
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Mark Andrews
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Brian E Carpenter
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Cullen Jennings
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Tony Finch
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Iljitsch van Beijnum
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary michael.dillon
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage David Conrad
- Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspectiv… Dan York
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- RE: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Ed Juskevicius
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Matt Mathis
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF … Elwyn Davies
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Cullen Jennings
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Brian Dickson
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Martin Stiemerling
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood... Frank Ellermann
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Philip Matthews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Christian Huitema
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Conrad
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… TS Glassey
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary IETF Chair
- Re: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Pl… rpelletier
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- Re: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Pl… Ray Pelletier
- Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Pl… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary todd glassey
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Chris Lonvick
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Dave Crocker
- Re: [IAOC] Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newb… Marshall Eubanks