Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the alternatives, was Service outages planned for April 25
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Sat, 30 April 2022 03:15 UTC
Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA5AC159A33 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 20:15:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.753
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.753 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.857, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kfq7CdfGI_Av for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 20:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CF0CC1594BA for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 20:15:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC0A5C01C4; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:15:00 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:15:00 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1651288500; x= 1651374900; bh=Z77lohP3MebfEhVgpc55h4/QJyWq/UN8q6CDHRaJlO8=; b=k jM8ZJAmM1fjRdlcsB59r8NgsfKBwM2HDHDXSsSFuVdNrEG105Ji731s4j19j9Y4A 12ZHIpnRHw+fcc7RLtwxjcJxkNxq8LGVGK6d2r2bphnObT57SHoYAiB/FM4XIcmI HIBmrC6R3BZmbDG65SKdxRwZ9qc2K01Umxq+BOs6tkt1wrWXX6LEa6TYO9AdDfPM l8bEHNP49y2BdE6p4SeMZXe+adq13u5kpr77ZBkDmcdyVSBbMfRiY14GY6sZU7rt kv39Qe6rx461ypSn5WWmwB/HCsDYozPGIl6ZIcfj33GGvLVp2YioGJoHhsGtwyTF dke1uqf4BIMl0ddm2rkDg==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:tKlsYl1xZS1t2q0JfTdmHFvJepA1hxBMPKOhGCilFGmC9mqtDFTxqw> <xme:tKlsYsHuvOeT9Tpvms6Z1a-6A7mdruKOK_2nZ7jtNOjYoM8cp1lWHC2tVPZwiiLt4 CQwezIaif9dTg>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:tKlsYl5mP9mC3EMPS1q3NKyt5E8cf3Yx_-9lztDAC-nQQQbp4Fc8wY7XXwSGuhlFcShd6hoTT0YOoQEzxElVnWXChBygRiw94U1tniwBimSnPJwU8TjF4g>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedrvddtgdeikecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtkfffgggfuffvvehfhfgjsegrtderredtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhh ucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedtffdtvddvieefffeigffhtdduudetheeigeeviefggfeg vdekiefhheefudejteenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:tKlsYi12gp2liAoXv5fiQlM6fpKe1prPrZ3YJQcaZ_OWFJj68Q2HMQ> <xmx:tKlsYoGDeHpggN9lLxYcYxl6QNc6zdSlFWFUZ-E4QSm1IjiaU_TWNg> <xmx:tKlsYj-ASAUpSggzfwm33HRvsgkH1ElGV5YB6XbN9qh_WgY17gixQg> <xmx:tKlsYjOxo7c26NqezlGpZr-pBYKkIbvHzD3caHFF6bNuRy_3PaX8PQ>
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:14:59 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ZSIVc3kxRIm1r9aAWs0v0tRr"
Message-ID: <75fcd392-4084-0597-74ae-92186330d1e4@network-heretics.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:14:57 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0
Subject: Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the alternatives, was Service outages planned for April 25
Content-Language: en-US
To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Cc: John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <20220428221138.9BFD63F11488@ary.qy> <e11aeebf-22f6-b067-db4f-ea84fe41abc5@network-heretics.com> <CAMm+Lwj7ZZn_enfkfMgLiSRaQbyEi6pBwoEdkdppA-=eOt8RRQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAMm+Lwj7ZZn_enfkfMgLiSRaQbyEi6pBwoEdkdppA-=eOt8RRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/PZClF1ZnaYcFrarDrOh4RA_qgnk>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 03:15:11 -0000
On 4/29/22 22:42, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > It will certainly be an unpopular thing to say but I will say it: > Protocols wear out over time. > > We have patched SMTP again and again and again and at this point there > are more patches than protocol and there are holes we simply can't fix > because we have reached the limit. And yet, replacing it is difficult because of the vast number of installations, implementations, and mail domains for which service would have to be reconfigured, and the disruption of various kinds that would likely be caused. Even if the replacement were far superior and suitable for everyone's existing use cases. Also, replacing it seems likely to have the extremely undesirable side-effect of putting email even more in the hands of a few Big Companies than it already is. (I also think I disagree with you about SMTP, but it might be just a matter of differences between what we're each lumping into "SMTP") Keith p.s. Things have gotten so far out of hand that when I fill out some web form and type in my correct email address, the web form often tries to correct my input by changing the domain name to that of some 900 pound gorilla email service. Or when you try to send mail and it fails to be delivered because of a spam filter, the recipient often tells you to get an account with their service provider.
- Service outages planned for April 25 Robert Sparks
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Robert Sparks
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 tom petch
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Jay Daley
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Keith Moore
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Carsten Bormann
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Keith Moore
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Carsten Bormann
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Keith Moore
- Email and reputation (was Re: Service outages pla… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: Email and reputation (was Re: Service outages… Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … John Levine
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… John Levine
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … John R Levine
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … touch@strayalpha.com
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … touch@strayalpha.com
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… John R Levine
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Christian Huitema
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Masataka Ohta
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Masataka Ohta
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Michael Richardson
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… John Levine
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… John Levine
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Keith Moore
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Christopher Morrow
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Keith Moore
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… John Levine
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Keith Moore
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Christopher Morrow
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Keith Moore
- Deployment strategy for email+ Was: Mail is worse… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… John Levine
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… John R Levine
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Masataka Ohta
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Masataka Ohta
- Trying to do too much (was Re: the introduction p… Jim Fenton
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Keith Moore
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Keith Moore
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Michael Richardson
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Masataka Ohta
- Re: potable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (wa… John Levine
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: potable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (wa… Michael Richardson
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Keith Moore
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… John R Levine
- Re: potable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (wa… Keith Moore
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Masataka Ohta
- Re: potable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (wa… Masataka Ohta
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… Michael Richardson
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… John Levine
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… Michael Richardson
- We are not a mail forwarding service Carsten Bormann
- Re: We are not a mail forwarding service John R Levine
- ugly hacks (was: Re: We are not a mail forwarding… Keith Moore
- Re: ugly hacks (was: Re: We are not a mail forwar… John Levine
- Re: ugly hacks (was: Re: We are not a mail forwar… Keith Moore
- Re: We are not a mail forwarding service Robert Sparks
- Re: We are not a mail forwarding service Carsten Bormann
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: potable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (wa… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… Keith Moore
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… Phillip Hallam-Baker