Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter

[Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]>]

Hi Adrian,

I had a similar concern when I read the new title, but I think it has to be read in context. For instance, since RFC 2223 every RFC has a 'security consideration'-sections. This name does not explain it is about security considerations _of protocols_. I think renaming HRPC from Human Rights Protocol Considerations to Human Rights and Policy Considerations shows a new evolution of the RG from establishing the relation between protocols and human rights (as we did in RFC8280 and later in draft-guidelines and draft-association), to now further integrating and aligning the social and the technical. I say further, because the technical is always social and the social is also always already technical.

Hope this helps!

Best,

Niels



On 24-12-2022 04:40, Adrian Gropper wrote:
> The difference between protocol and policy is the difference between engineering and law. IETF is engineering.
> 
> For example, engineers build a tunnel that can work for both cars and buses. Policy may preference one or the other but the engineers have a duty to avoid tilting that choice unless it has direct economic impact.
> 
> The GNAP example I have brought to this group is asking the engineers to stay out of the decision of whether the resource server or the resource owner has a stronger privacy interest. The GNAP protocol can and therefore should treat both as equally important and let constraints be a matter of policy and law.
> 
> Adrian
> 
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 5:18 PM Niels ten Oever <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> 
>     Der all,
> 
>     I hope this email finds you all really well. I think I like the aim in this recharter and I think it can help to make hrpc more relevant to more audiences, so a lot of appreciation for that to the chairs.
> 
>     There are some questions I have with regards to the new charter, so I hope you'll bare with me. Most boil down to: what do you mean with policy impact, policy concerns, public interest policy, etc. This just to ensure we don't end up in the weeds later when we have the charter.
> 
>     # 1
>     [quote1]
>     Moreover it is widely accepted that technical design decisions about the Internet are not value neutral [RFC3935] and can have lasting impacts on public policy and individual rights.
> 
>     [/quote1]
> 
>     I am not sure whether the nature of the impact of technical design decisions on rights is the same as the impact on public policy, since rights belong to people and policy is an instrument of the state. So I see how technical design decisions can impact people and their rights, and how it can impact the state, but state instruments might be different? I think this is more a question of wordsmithing than ontology though.
> 
>     Furthermore I would not refer to "individual rights", but rather to "human rights". Or if you really want to "individual and communal rights".
> 
>     A fix could be:
> 
>     [proposal1]
> 
>     Moreover it is widely accepted that technical design decisions about the Internet are not value neutral [RFC3935] and can have lasting impacts on human rights and affect public policy.
> 
>     [/proposal1]
> 
>     # 2
> 
>     This seems quite a long sentence that is hard to parse:
> 
>     [quote2]
> 
>     This research group aims to explore the relations between Internet architecture and human rights and to provide guidelines to inform future protocol development and decision making where protocols impact or are informed by policies that serve the public interest and protect human rights.
> 
>     [/quote2]
> 
>     May I suggest the following:
> 
>     [proposal2]
> 
>     This research group aims to explore the relations between Internet architecture, protocols, and human rights. Furthermore the research group aims to provide guidelines to inform future protocol development and decision making to align protocols with human rights and the public interest.
> 
>     [/proposal2]
> 
>     # 3
> 
>     I am not sure the research question is really covering the work of the group, I think that is better covered under objectives. If we really want a research question to be in there we need to workshop it a bit more.
> 
>     # 4
> 
>     [quote]
> 
>     The Human Rights and Policy Considerations Research Group is chartered to research of protocol development that is responsible towards and mindful of the human rights of others [RFC3271] and whether standards and protocols can enable, strengthen or threaten human rights, as defined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) [1] and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) [2].
> 
>     [/quote]
> 
>     I think this sentence is a bit convoluted, especially where it comes to: "research of protocol development that is responsible towards and mindful of the human rights of others"
> 
>     # 5
> 
>     RFC3271 does not mention the human rights of others.
> 
>     # 6
> 
>     [quote]
> 
>     Furthermore HRPC researches how protocols can influence policy concerns
> 
>     [/quote]
> 
>     It might be me, but what are 'policy concerns'? Do we simply mean 'concerns of policy makers' with this? If so, probably better to spell it out?
> 
>     # 7
> 
>     [quote]
> 
>     This research group is a discursive resource for the community to ensure the development process fully recognizes these potential public policy impacts, addresses those impacts adequately, and builds evidence and guidance for policy makers on the necessary design tradeoffs that should be made.
> 
>     [/quote]
> 
>     what do you mean with "a discursive resource"?
> 
>     You refer to "these potential public policy impacts", which policy impacts do you mean?
> 
>     Happy to discuss.
> 
>     Niels
> 
> 
>     On 22-12-2022 18:30, Mallory Knodel wrote:
>      > Dear RG,
>      >
>      > Hope everyone is well.
>      >
>      > At the 115 meeting HRPC was reviewed by the IAB [0], notes of which are forthcoming from the IAB.
>      >
>      > Partially as a result, though this activity predates the review itself, Sofia and I have been reviewing the HRPC charter. In particular we are keen to expand HRPC slightly, though arguably our area of work will remain the same (more on that later), to explicitly welcome policy discussions.
>      >
>      > The recharter text is available in GitHub [1] where you can view a diff [2]. It is also in a plaintext format with more visual indications of where the changes have been made [3].
>      >
>      > My view on the proposed change to include "policy" as a replacement for "protocol" in the name and charter text have been shaped by both of the past chairs of HRPC and Colin's feedback, which is that the human rights framework can apply to virtually any policy discussion and therefore HRPC has all along according to its charter had a mandate to talk about these issues. However I do think that the slight rephrasing in places gives us necessary updates that reflect the current political moment as well as learning from past lessons since the group was chartered the first time. Additionally I think there is value in the group name and its charter text being written so as to explicitly attract researchers and research that discuss policy, as a "place to land" in the IETF/IRTF.
>      >
>      > We welcome any comments on the proposed changes.
>      >
>      > Happy new year and best wishes to everyone,
>      >
>      > -Chairs, Mallory & Sofia
>      >
>      > [0] https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/RG_Reviews <https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/RG_Reviews>
>      >
>      > [1] https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/IRTF-HRPC/blob/main/hrpccharter.md <https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/IRTF-HRPC/blob/main/hrpccharter.md>
>      >
>      > [2] https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/IRTF-HRPC/commit/1a029b31ab3521e8da1490924c94397a99497d19 <https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/IRTF-HRPC/commit/1a029b31ab3521e8da1490924c94397a99497d19>
>      >
>      > [3] https://pad.riseup.net/p/Qgq2TJuWLbFSY1Jrcxgm <https://pad.riseup.net/p/Qgq2TJuWLbFSY1Jrcxgm>
>      >
>      >
> 
>     -- 
>     Niels ten Oever, PhD
>     Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of Amsterdam
>     Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon Fraser University
>     Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy & Technology
>     Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas
>     Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina
> 
>     Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
> 
>     W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
>     E: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     T: @nielstenoever
>     P/S/WA: [phone]
>     PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3
> 
>     Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G reshapes the internet https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>
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-- 
Niels ten Oever, PhD
Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of Amsterdam
Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon Fraser University
Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy & Technology
Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas
Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina

Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)

W: https://nielstenoever.net
E: [e-mail]
T: @nielstenoever
P/S/WA: [phone]
PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3

Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G reshapes the internet https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446