Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter
Mallory Knodel <mknodel@cdt.org> Mon, 09 January 2023 16:24 UTC
Return-Path: <mknodel@cdt.org>
X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4F0C14F729 for <hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Jan 2023 08:24:55 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -10.211
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.114, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ehe6Koh-RWpI for <hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Jan 2023 08:24:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78BDCC131C58 for <hrpc@irtf.org>; Mon, 9 Jan 2023 08:21:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com with SMTP id s127so9155153vsb.5 for <hrpc@irtf.org>; Mon, 09 Jan 2023 08:21:08 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+BDrjXqOhAq8PrfTniYbK2XNeQPJFGI5fntqiifCiZ8=; b=JAmLQhIEO17Fb0IoVB0Hns+alTyL9TAyy73s9+CydbVSKe0IzE+pkYNfeKJLyw7MXZ C4ehoD4iWUjNejlHYyrZsxNtAg2tF1hz/xgqK9CUTaADDAJodQUpRZ01i4hHHyFGp1Uk HEivALK8JdaHnpZnFQzFEyqIIIUBzz5hmhNak=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+BDrjXqOhAq8PrfTniYbK2XNeQPJFGI5fntqiifCiZ8=; b=d7DbwjQqjozE8ryVSRV7qLcJqyM89TdctGJ3keKhsoC3XA2FRE74xUCKSfneyR52e8 t2LMeruqpihnBgLujo2nNUUsDTzHagiPd8wfJOnwpzV0vShHz++qoIgKiEiEW6xq9cI9 IGGlNeZaqTRwGhUgkZRokHm00z2dJbeZ7cb7k5FSOeWazTAX/+ZwnoqnYLe2ia8FwpCU U+ZL/7IQZ5ur7g+ftp174O70QoUR8BVud0m9XE5wbE0rmlaubRAhQE1nzs4jK8mLpOQY Rk57NVKUSCtE8J824cV4Td6kgEVNkFe/GjegAiEAWrLUCA0TTfPVhrwc3Y2hvJtPzI9F 6UxA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kqXn+QzjCcIAqPp9KWsIIbzPZQXZLSy1ekrfN8icW/Z7xlKJRbC 5qb/+Dozs9KofqfUGNOrB6rh0BNCpplBXi2Z
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXuB5ZY8NlX89mcqWdrydPVvxmp0zo7vZ1RwNzsaLPEn9Lfkv/pG+DSqnBgxw2R20NEmhMBXJg==
X-Received: by 2002:a67:d818:0:b0:3ce:cfc5:547 with SMTP id e24-20020a67d818000000b003cecfc50547mr7260665vsj.10.1673281267411; Mon, 09 Jan 2023 08:21:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ?IPV6:2600:4040:2531:df00:6cdc:cb13:cd68:7a0c? ([2600:4040:2531:df00:6cdc:cb13:cd68:7a0c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o5-20020a05620a2a0500b006f9e103260dsm5627132qkp.91.2023.01.09.08.21.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Jan 2023 08:21:06 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <4ca56cf3-926f-51c3-bca1-c0ef28d69828@cdt.org>
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 11:21:06 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:107.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/107.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: John Curran <jcurran@istaff.org>, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch>
Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>
References: <6ddd480d-76ed-a05e-066d-d740fee61441@cdt.org> <20230104215936.5exwsmtztk2shnzb@crankycanuck.ca> <63464538-4d40-a946-bcbe-570a6a3b49f9@lear.ch> <bTrwmE0TLN4PwdQNwJzzFmzPZPIjXrO6ld6loBlNBDBrluGDos9kftE0EzKxQMFhzhoE6LJewu0jGGFet5PqoYFj8gJaHRguKWDYFmp0fJ4=@interpeer.io> <134c16a8-8660-def4-d24a-3da1b5ea9953@lear.ch> <87FD35DB-1857-4F20-B3F4-D38A8E80C99F@istaff.org>
From: Mallory Knodel <mknodel@cdt.org>
In-Reply-To: <87FD35DB-1857-4F20-B3F4-D38A8E80C99F@istaff.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hrpc/dOhkk4bbbGGI1PtnZUN-dy9T1Lc>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter
X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: hrpc discussion list <hrpc.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/hrpc>, <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/hrpc/>
List-Post: <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc>, <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 16:24:55 -0000
On 1/7/23 8:59 AM, John Curran wrote: >> On Jan 6, 2023, at 4:33 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote: >> ... >> Nobody disputes that human rights concerns are a problem now. What many of us have concerns about is how to balance the different and often conflicting rights and interests at the time of protocol design. > I am fine with the revised charter. > > (I had hoped that the update would include more focus on protocol research topics that would allow us to deliver on these conflicting rights, but it appears to take a different approach and presume that such matters are unsolvable – and instead work on building “evidence and guidance for policy makers on the necessary design tradeoffs that should be made.” This is a tad unfortunate, since we know that policy makers will not engage in the hard technical protocol research necessary into solving these problems, and this “research group” resigning itself to documenting recommended guidance on tradeoffs rather than working on exploring technical solutions for protocols nearly assures that some human rights will never be satisfied on the Internet.) Thanks John, I like your optimism and it would be great if we could explore technical solutions for human rights at the protocol layer. I think tradeoffs is there because of lessons learned, practicality and prior suggested language, but I'm happy to put in some "yes, and" language so that tradeoff remains but we can also indicate that there may be direct solutions, too. What about: "evidence and guidance for policy makers _on technical solutions and_ the necessary design tradeoffs that should be made." -Mallory > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
- [hrpc] HRPC recharter Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Adrian Gropper
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eric Rescorla
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Michael Rogers
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Bill Jouris
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Melinda Shore
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eric Rescorla
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Melinda Shore
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eric Rescorla
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Stephen Farrell
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Adrian Gropper
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Jens Finkhaeuser
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter John Curran
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter farzaneh badii
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter John Curran
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Jens Finkhaeuser
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter farzaneh badii
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Adrian Gropper
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter farzaneh badii
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eric Rescorla
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Adrian Gropper
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eric Rescorla
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Jens Finkhaeuser
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Paul Wouters
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Ted Lemon
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Jens Finkhaeuser
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Sofía Celi
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Eric Rescorla
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] HRPC recharter Sofía Celi
- [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the charter … Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Melinda Shore
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Melinda Shore
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Sofía Celi
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Sofía Celi
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Sofía Celi
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Colin Perkins
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Marek Blachut
- Re: [hrpc] Politics, representation, and the char… Vittorio Bertola