Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment)
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Thu, 19 November 2020 16:02 UTC
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Tony Whyman <tony.whyman@mccallumwhyman.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment)
Thread-Topic: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment)
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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:02:16 +0000
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Hi Tony, > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Whyman [mailto:tony.whyman@mccallumwhyman.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:42 AM > To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; ipv6@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) > > On 18/11/2020 22:27, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Brian, > > > >> How about an ops Area draft describing how the proposal works with BGP4 and how many new BGP routes it will create? > > I am not well liked in ops, but if Tony is up for another document and has > > enjoyed the IETF "ride" thus far sure why not. What do you think, Tony? > > > > Fred > > Fred, > > Not sure if I really understand the question. As we both know, BGP > routes to mobiles are not readily aggregatable. They are also subject to > an unusually high rate of change resulting in potential forwarding table > volatility. If you go down the BGP path then some sort of containment > strategy is required, as you have specified for AERO and which itself > draws on the way the ATN/OSI works with IDRP routes. Outside the > containment area only a highly aggregated route to all mobiles is ever > advertised. AERO/OMNI have benefitted immeasurably from the ICAO WG-I input (yourself in particular), but the BGP arrangement is something that was already in my specs before I entered the aviation fray - see RFC6179. That it may resemble the way ATN/OSI works with IDRP is something I was not aware of, but probably a good thing. > Alternatively, Mobile IP avoids the problem by aggregating mobile routes > effectively within the Home Agent and advertising only an aggregated > route to some collective Home Network. A LISP based approach does not > even work with BGP in the EID-space, although an xTR Proxy might > advertise a highly aggregated route to all mobiles to the wider internet. > > As for the "ride" - next time I'll confine myself to the simpler problem > of delivering World Peace. Indeed. We can talk about this off-list. Fred > Tony > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 2:20 PM > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; Tony Whyman <tony.whyman@mccallumwhyman.com>; ipv6@ietf.org > >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) > >> > >> Fred, > >> > >> My concern isn't about what happens inside the ICAO limited domain. What you say makes complete sense there. It's about how > >> these prefixes (fail to) aggregate in what we used to call the default-free zone. (RFC1888 probably would have had that problem > too, > >> but as far as I know, nobody ever implemented it.) If there was a bgpops WG, that would be the place to discuss it. > >> > >> If the plan creates a new DFZ route for each airline, that's a negligible number in the BGP4 context. If it creates a new DFZ route for > >> each aircraft, that could be problematic. > >> > >> How about an ops Area draft describing how the proposal works with BGP4 and how many new BGP routes it will create? > >> > >> Regards > >> Brian > >> > >> On 19-Nov-20 10:27, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>> Brian, there will be many non-airplane users of the ATN/IPS top-level IPv6 prefix > >>> allocation - often in fixed and non-mobile environments - and we can expect them > >>> to conform to CIDR conventions. We are only talking here about the airplanes, > >>> which are always mobile and always away from "home". > >>> > >>> I have shown how we can route their prefixes using scalable de-aggregation, > >>> and you seemed to concur. So, why can't we tolerate a 24-bit portion of the > >>> airplane's prefix that does not come from a strict CIDR hierarchy? > >>> > >>> Fred > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 12:10 PM > >>>> To: Tony Whyman <tony.whyman@mccallumwhyman.com>; ipv6@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) > >>>> > >>>> Tony, > >>>> > >>>> I don't like the argument that people are arguing for either "purity" > >>>> or "perfection". That is not the issue. The issue is doing something > >>>> that matches how IPv6 wide-area routing actually works, and that is > >>>> by CIDRised prefix allocation. > >>>> > >>>> Now you have peeled back the onion to this point: > >>>> > >>>>> we have to have an addressing plan (for > >>>>> aircraft) that is canonical with the existing NSAP Address. > >>>> I understand that as a perceived requirement; it's more or less why > >>>> we wrote RFC1888, although mapping US GOSIP addresses was the target > >>>> then. I don't know how the ICAO lays out its NSAPA addresses, but I > >>>> imagine that the aircraft ID is towards the low-order bits? > >>>> That's where it should be in an IPv6 address, IMNSHO. > >>>> > >>>> The current proposal seems to be limited to 16 subnets on an > >>>> aircraft and that is highly likely to come back and bite you. > >>>> > >>>> Regards > >>>> Brian Carpenter > >>>> > >>>> On 18-Nov-20 22:33, Tony Whyman wrote: > >>>>> On 18/11/2020 03:30, Michael Richardson wrote: > >>>>>> When we designed IPv6, we assumed that everyone would get some, even if they > >>>>>> didn't connect. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ULAs only have the first property. > >>>>>> > If a device doesn't need the second property, the device doesn't need a GUA. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Again, what is this business of trying to ration IPv6? > >>>>>> Do they really need 39 bits? I don't know. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Our entire Ipv6 architecture ENCOURAGES entities to ask for the amount of space > >>>>>> that they think they might need over the lifetime of their effort and NEVER > >>>>>> COME BACK for more. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> That's why /64 for IIDs, and /48s for every site. > >>>>> If there is another edition of RFC 8200 then the sentence beginning "Our > >>>>> entire.." should be copied to the front page of the new edition. Yes, we > >>>>> all get the idea that addressing plans should be as elegant as possible > >>>>> - but IPv4-think should have no place in this. But, perhaps the most > >>>>> important notion that comes through in the above is that each industry > >>>>> ultimately knows best when it comes to the compromises that have to be > >>>>> made to create an industry specific addressing plan. > >>>>> > >>>>> Over the last few days, I have been happy to try and peel away the > >>>>> issues that lay behind our proposed IPv6 addressing plan and to use it > >>>>> as an opportunity to spread understanding of the ATN/IPS and the > >>>>> constraints under which we are working. However, there is one point that > >>>>> it seems to be too difficult for some to get their head around and that > >>>>> is that we are not starting with a "clean sheet of paper". We have to > >>>>> respect the constraints that we have and sometimes arguably poor > >>>>> decisions that were made in the past and the result is a compromise. It > >>>>> will offend those who demand purity - but purity is not the objective. > >>>>> The objective is to deploy a working IPv6 based system. > >>>>> > >>>>> In the ICAO Working Groups, we are writing the 3rd edition of the > >>>>> ATN/IPS Manual. There were two earlier versions and both represent > >>>>> failed attempts to deliver an IPS based ATN. They failed - not > >>>>> necessarily for technical reasons - but because there was no business > >>>>> case. This is a very hard nosed industry and, unless its use is > >>>>> commanded by regulation, if a new technology does not deliver more > >>>>> passengers or raise the profit/passenger then it ain't going to happen. > >>>>> > >>>>> Even now, I am hard pressed to see any business case for an ATN/IPS > >>>>> replacing the venerable ATN/OSI. The ATN/OSI is a CLNP overlay on top of > >>>>> an IPv4 network, it works, with some limitations, and will support the > >>>>> current generation of applications. With nugatory upgrades it could > >>>>> support the next generation. Some might point to presumed cost savings > >>>>> by replacing CLNP with something that is industry mainstream - but the > >>>>> truth is that the CLNP bits are, by and large, in systems that perform > >>>>> functions that are unique to civil aviation, while the rest is catalogue > >>>>> item routers. > >>>>> > >>>>> However, looking to the long term, it will be increasingly difficult to > >>>>> develop new applications on the ATN/OSI base and we should seize the > >>>>> first opportunity that we can find to move on to an ATN/IPS. > >>>>> > >>>>> A funding window has opened up with the European Space Agency (ESA) and > >>>>> the EU's SESAR research programme putting in the funds to develop a > >>>>> prototype SATCOM service for the ATN/IPS. This should just about extend > >>>>> to cover initial avionics on a single aircraft type (different > >>>>> generations of aircraft have different communication architectures and > >>>>> everything has to be type approved before it can be used). The funding > >>>>> should also cover a protocol gateway allowing the prototype to interwork > >>>>> with ATC Centres i.e. to at least demonstrate an operational service > >>>>> using the ATN/IPS. > >>>>> > >>>>> Even stretching the funding envelope this far is optimistic. Adding in > >>>>> anything else like a new registration scheme for aircraft and lookup > >>>>> tables in the protocol gateway will kill the project financially. Yes, I > >>>>> know that these are not technically difficult, but when you work in an > >>>>> environment where every new function has to be subject to a hazard > >>>>> analysis, a safety case, a high end develop lifecycle and rigorous > >>>>> testing then, what looks like a simple function on paper, quickly gets > >>>>> replaced by a dollar sign followed by lots of digits. > >>>>> > >>>>> To keep this project feasible, we have to have an addressing plan (for > >>>>> aircraft) that is canonical with the existing NSAP Address. You may > >>>>> prefer purity and demand that we have a perfect addressing plan. But you > >>>>> are not helping. > >>>>> > >>>>> Our goal is to get a working ATN/IPS on to a single aircraft type with > >>>>> minimum change to the existing system. Once this has been demonstrated > >>>>> to be feasible and "industry mainstream" then the case can be made for > >>>>> rolling it out to other aircraft types and, may be, one day, even the > >>>>> ATC Centre's will get upgraded - but that will probably have wait until > >>>>> a new application provides the business case. > >>>>> > >>>>> Perhaps another aphorism that could be put on the front page of a future > >>>>> version of RFC 8200 is "never let the perfect be the enemy of the good". > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> > >>>>> Tony Whyman, MWA > >>>>> > >>>>> PS: we could always declare the ATN as a closed network and use our own > >>>>> addressing plan - but does not help make the "industry mainstream" case, > >>>>> does it. > >>>>> > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >>>>> ipv6@ietf.org > >>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >>>> ipv6@ietf.org > >>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> . > >>> > >
- Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Ca By
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Extending a /64 Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: Extending a /64 George Michaelson
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Christopher Morrow
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Christopher Morrow
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 S Moonesamy
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Extending a /64 Simon Hobson
- Re: Extending a /64 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Extending a /64 Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Extending a /64 Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: Extending a /64 Da Silva, Saulo
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Extending a /64 Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- RE: Extending a /64 Da Silva, Saulo
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Why this is broken [was Re: Extend… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Why this is broken [was Re: Extend… Matthew Petach
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Tony Whyman
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 David Farmer
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 David Farmer
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Why this is broken [was Re: Extend… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Extending a /64 Simon Hobson
- Re: Cellphones in aircraft [was: Why this is brok… Simon Hobson
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Why this is broken [was Re: Extend… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Why this is broken [was Re: Extend… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Matthew Petach
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Ex… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Philip Homburg
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Tony Whyman
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welc… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welc… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) David Farmer
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welc… Tony Whyman
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welc… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welc… Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Extending a /64 Mudric, Dusan
- Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Extending a /64 tom petch
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard