Re: Extending a /64
Tony Whyman <tony.whyman@mccallumwhyman.com> Mon, 16 November 2020 10:04 UTC
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Subject: Re: Extending a /64
To: ipv6@ietf.org
References: <202011151920.0AFJKN9U003337@mail2.mwassocs.co.uk> <3d26bffe-b6c9-4ed7-6135-a515f9902fd7@gmail.com> <m1keOTi-0000EGC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <CAO42Z2wZkXryhw1u5WAFdtCvXHyyz1zeM22FP_gRxjurjsG-Jw@mail.gmail.com> <5f505585-1328-d942-2ec2-a2d96b7b4779@foobar.org> <m1kePdR-0000I6C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <b022d11f-b55d-07ef-307d-949ff57cd562@foobar.org> <m1keS7i-0000E0C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
From: Tony Whyman <tony.whyman@mccallumwhyman.com>
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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 10:04:33 +0000
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On 16/11/2020 00:11, Philip Homburg wrote: >> If the need is shown, why would the aerospace industry not get the >> address space? /17 of address space for an entire industry with unified >> networking goals doesn't seem especially unreasonable, i.e. it's very >> large service provider size. There aren't that many other equivalent >> society / industry areas which have common networking goals in the same >> way that the aerospace industry does. > Of course this is more a discussion for the relevant RIR communities, but > for example based on RIPE policies, I don't see how you could get a /17 for > around 500000 internet connections. Even if you assume a couple of > hundred passengers per plane and a /48 per passenger then it still doesn't > add up. > > In what way is the aerospace large from a network point of view? 500000 > connections is not a lot. In most parts of the world that would be a smallish > ISP. > Wow, I put up a 2 line post on a Sunday evening and it generated a real storm of responses. There is clearly interest in the subject and many points raised: 1. How scarce is the IPv6 Address Space? In several earlier posts on this thread and related threads some have commented that the IPv6 Address Space is not scarce and that IPv4-think still influences too many decisions. Allocation density does seem to dominate RIR policies and comments such as those above also appear to follow the same logic i.e. that IPv6 addresses are valuable and should only be allocated to the most deserving. On the other hand, only a small fraction of the total IPv6 address space has been allocated to date. While the address space is finite, other policy rules do not seem too worried about allocation density. For example, if you do worry about allocation density then on what justification should anything other than a single /64 be allocated to the average residential customer? If draft-mishra-6man-variable-slaac ever becomes a standard then there would seem to be few if any cases where a shorter prefix was needed. Even a Boeing 747 or Airbus A-380 will follow the single gateway router model and could work within such a limit. Same should apply to Mobile Phones. My own preference would be a prudent address allocation policy (i.e. /64 is the default) while recognising that this should give you the head room to support address allocation policies that, where necessary, give a higher precedence to efficient routing and/or sub-allocation strategies - all of which lead to a lower address allocation density for those users that need to go down such a path. 2. Why not use RFC 4193 ULA? This was my original proposal to the ICAO working group - and it got shot down :( This is for the following reasons: a. RFC 4193 is too prescriptive in that it wants a rigid boundary at a /48. Not a really a show stopper, but still a nuisance. b. There are cases (e.g. drones) where there may be a requirement to inter-operate with the public internet. c. A strong desire to "be part of the global IPv6 address space". A political/emotional motivation, but important nonetheless to some. d. There will be other non-public internets to which the ATN/IPS will be interconnected (e.g. military) and ULAs could cause addressing issues at the border gateways. I left the strongest justification until last. The global internet is not just the public internet, there will be other global and regional non-public internets, such as the ICAO ATN, military networks, and others that we haven't yet thought about. If any non-public internet goes down the path of ULAs then there is a high risk that address mapping (i.e. NAT) is required at the border gateways with any other internet that you need to internetwork with. The view was that it is much better to design out the problem by using globally unique IPv6 addresses. IMHO, RIR policies are often far too focussed on the public internet and forget about non-public internets and the value of common addressing plans between public and non-public internets. 3. Mobile Network Prefixes (MNPs) are non-topological addresses. A minor point, but still one worth making. Each aircraft is assigned a unique MNP and which is only routeable when supported by a mobility management scheme. In theory this could support an argument for a high density allocation. However, that is before you bring in considerations of how mobility is supported. For example, if you go down a Mobile IP (or similar) path then you are going to want an MNP to be allocated from a Home Address Prefix - and you are not going to have a single Home Network for all aircraft in the world. There are probably three main considerations when determining the addressing plan for aircraft MNPs. a. The mobility management scheme b. How address management is delegated to states and airlines. c. Firewall strategies. The last point demands that the rules for address management are clear and simple and respect natural groupings. 4. Static vs Dynamic Allocation A static MNP allocation policy has been adopted by ICAO. There are many reasons for this. However, arguably the strongest of these is that if you do down a dynamic allocation route then there is a risk that an aircraft's (dynamic) MNP is changed in flight leading both to re-numbering on board the aircraft and having to report the new addresses to Air Traffic Control. All this results a significant comms outage - possibly at a critical phase of flight and will always be listed as a hazard in the Safety Analysis. In consequence, lots of testing, mitigation strategies, and so on. It is far better to design out the problem by using a static addressing scheme. 5. Address Management and Allocation A static address will have to be configured into each aircraft and that is a non-trivial problem given the regulatory control exercised over aircraft maintenance. There is an existing "personality module" in every aircraft that is there to hold the aircraft identity. This already includes information such as the aircraft's ICAO 24-bit identifier (a unique global identifier allocated to all aircraft flying in civilian controlled airspace). If you limit the construction of an MNP to static constants and the configuration data that already exists then you avoid a global programme to upgrade the Personality Module in all aircraft. FYI, the 24-bit identifier is bigger than it might need be because it has at least two parts - a state registry identifier and an aircraft identifier. The state identifier is variable length and varies according to how big the aircraft registry is expected to be in that state. 6. Legacy Issues We have a very significant legacy issue in the existing ATN/OSI which is in wide-spread use in Europe. In order to avoid having to upgrade every ATC Centre before the ATN/IPS can be introduced into Europe, the strategy is to develop protocol gateways that protocol convert between the ATN/IPS and the ATN/OSI. For these gateways to work, there has to be semantic equivalence between the address spaces. That is, the ATN/IPS MNP must include the ICAO 24-bit and an airline identifier (15 bits seems to be the minimum here). Note: network addresses are also exchanged in end-to-end application messages. This is because when an aircraft first contacts ATC, it has to bind its Flight Identifier (callsign) to its airframe and network identity. For most scheduled airlines, a Flight (e.g. BAW388) can be operated on a given day by any appropriate aircraft and the ATN has to be able to manage this fact safely. Indeed, as a wider issue, the binding of Flight Identifier to airframe identity (used for radar, ADS-B and datalink) is a key safety issue and not one that you mess around with. 7. We are boxed in An ATN/IPS MNP needs to be statically allocated and to be formed from some initial prefix, a 39 bit aircraft identifier and some more bits for subnetting. This scheme also needs to be expandable to include other airspace users such as drones. If you assume draft-mishra-6man-variable-slaac then you could make do with an ICAO prefix that is a /20, but a /16 avoids making that assumption. A /16 should be a small part of the unused IPv6 address space and it is difficult to see why a /16 should not be made available to what is one of the most important global non-public internets. 8. For legal reasons, the allocation of a /16 has to be made at the IANA level. Finally, it is worth pointing out that ICAO standards have a different legal significance than, say, an RFC. The ICAO ratification process is slow but ends up with ICAO member states being asked to accept the standard as being annexed to the international civil aviation treaty. The ATN/IPS should become a mandatory standard for aircraft worldwide and so you can expect this to happen. As a result, the standard effectively becomes part of international law and this will include publication of the addressing plan and the ICAO (/16) prefix. I am not an expert in international law. However, I suspect that would make it legally impossible for IANA to unilaterally revoke the /16 allocation. My guess is that the RIRs do not have the authority to give away a chunk of the address space in this way and that this has to be done at the IANA level. Hopefully, the above helps give further background and I assume that there is interest in this subject given the response to last night's post. Regards Tony Whyman, MWA
- Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Ca By
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Extending a /64 Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: Extending a /64 George Michaelson
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Christopher Morrow
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Christopher Morrow
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 otroan
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 S Moonesamy
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Extending a /64 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Extending a /64 Simon Hobson
- Re: Extending a /64 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Extending a /64 Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Extending a /64 Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: Extending a /64 Da Silva, Saulo
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Extending a /64 Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- RE: Extending a /64 Da Silva, Saulo
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Why this is broken [was Re: Extend… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Why this is broken [was Re: Extend… Matthew Petach
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Tony Whyman
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 David Farmer
- Re: Extending a /64 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 David Farmer
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Why this is broken [was Re: Extend… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Extending a /64 Simon Hobson
- Re: Cellphones in aircraft [was: Why this is brok… Simon Hobson
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Why this is broken [was Re: Extend… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Why this is broken [was Re: Extend… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Matthew Petach
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Ex… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Philip Homburg
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worke… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 (ATN/IPS worked example) Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Tony Whyman
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welc… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welc… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) David Farmer
- Re: Extending a /64 Michael Richardson
- Re: Why this is broken [was Re: Extending a /64] Michael Richardson
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welc… Tony Whyman
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welc… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 (The most welc… Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Extending a /64 Mudric, Dusan
- Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Extending a /64 Tony Whyman
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- Re: Extending a /64 (The most welcome comment) Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Extending a /64 tom petch
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Extending a /64 Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Extending a /64 Mark Smith
- Re: Extending a /64 Philip Homburg
- Re: Extending a /64 Nick Hilliard