Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Codec (codec)

"adapting" or "adopting"?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>
Cc: <codec@ietf.org>; <ietf@ietf.org>; <iesg@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Codec (codec)


> Good improvement.  I'd go a slide bit further:
>
>    Although this preference cannot guarantee that the working
>    group will produce an unencumbered codec, the working group shall
>    follow BCP 79, and adhere to the spirit of BCP 79.  The working
>    group cannot explicitly rule out the possibility of adapting
>    encumbered technologies; however, the working group will try to
>    avoid encumbered technologies that would hinder free
>    redistribution in any way.
>
> Russ
>
> On 1/7/2010 3:13 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm not sure royalties are the *least* of out problems, but I certainly
>> agree with Stephan that annoyances go further than just royalties. I
>> understand that BCP79 restricts what we can say about that in the 
>> charter,
>> but at least mentioning the problem as Stephan suggests is a good idea 
>> IMO.
>> In some sense, this is again part of the "making it easy to 
>> redistribute".
>>
>> Jean-Marc
>>
>> Stephan Wenger wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Russ' language is an improvement.  But let's not forget that there are
>>> encumbrances that have nothing to do with paying royalties, but are 
>>> equally
>>> problematic from an adoption viewpoint.  Examples:
>>>
>>> 1. Co-marketing requirement: need to put a logo of the rightholder 
>>> company
>>> on one's products acknowledging using the protected technology.
>>> 2. Unreasonable (from the viewpoint of the adopter) reciprocity
>>> requirements: one of many examples would be "if you use this technology, 
>>> you
>>> agree not to assert, against me or my customers, any of your patents.
>>> Otherwise your license terminates.".
>>> 3. Requirement for a "postcard license".  Such a requirement may rule 
>>> out
>>> open source implementations under certain open source licenses.
>>>
>>> I believe strongly that a charter that discusses IPR issues should 
>>> mention
>>> at least those three aspects, and/or provide sufficiently vague language 
>>> to
>>> allow for an appropriate reaction to those and other encumbrances that 
>>> may
>>> show up.
>>>
>>> Royalties are the least of our problems.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Stephan
>>>
>>> Disclaimer: I have clients that would have problems with all three
>>> encumbrances mentioned above.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/7/10 11:08 AM, "Peter Saint-Andre"<stpeter@stpeter.im>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/7/10 9:46 AM, Russ Housley wrote:
>>>>> Andy:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although this preference cannot guarantee that the working
>>>>>>> group will produce an unencumbered codec, the working group shall
>>>>>>> attempt to adhere to the spirit of BCP 79.  This preference does not
>>>>>>> explicitly rule out the possibility of adapting encumbered 
>>>>>>> technologies;
>>>>>>> such decisions will be made in accordance with the rough consensus 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the working group.
>>>>>> I appreciate the potential difficulty of guaranteeing the 
>>>>>> unencumbered
>>>>>> status of any output of this group. However, I would like this
>>>>>> statement to
>>>>>> be stronger, saying that this group will only produce a new codec if
>>>>>> it is
>>>>>> strongly believed by WG rough consensus to either be unencumbered,
>>>>>> or freely licensed by the IPR holder(s), if any.
>>>>> I do not think that anyone wants the outcome to be yet another
>>>>> encumbered codec.  I think these words are trying to say what you 
>>>>> want,
>>>>> but they are also trying to be realistic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does the following text strike a better balance?
>>>>>
>>>>>    Although this preference cannot guarantee that the working
>>>>>    group will produce an unencumbered codec, the working group shall
>>>>>    follow BCP 79, and adhere to the spirit of BCP 79.  The working
>>>>>    group cannot explicitly rule out the possibility of adapting
>>>>>    encumbered technologies; however, the working group will try to
>>>>>    avoid encumbered technologies that require royalties.
>>>> That seems reasonable. Although I was only the BoF co-chair, I'll
>>>> volunteer to hold the pen on edits to the proposed charter.
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>