Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Codec (codec)
Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net> Sat, 09 January 2010 02:59 UTC
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From: Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net>
To: "jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca" <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>, "housley@vigilsec.com" <housley@vigilsec.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:55:08 -0800
Thread-Topic: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Codec (codec)
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Cc: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Codec (codec)
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Yes, it very nicely captures the spirit of the BoF's charter discussion to date. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: codec-bounces@ietf.org <codec-bounces@ietf.org> To: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> Cc: codec@ietf.org <codec@ietf.org>; ietf@ietf.org <ietf@ietf.org>; iesg@ietf.org <iesg@ietf.org> Sent: Fri Jan 08 21:43:49 2010 Subject: Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Codec (codec) I like that. On 2010-01-08 18:14, Russ Housley wrote: > Good improvement. I'd go a slide bit further: > > Although this preference cannot guarantee that the working > group will produce an unencumbered codec, the working group shall > follow BCP 79, and adhere to the spirit of BCP 79. The working > group cannot explicitly rule out the possibility of adapting > encumbered technologies; however, the working group will try to > avoid encumbered technologies that would hinder free > redistribution in any way. > > Russ > > On 1/7/2010 3:13 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'm not sure royalties are the *least* of out problems, but I certainly >> agree with Stephan that annoyances go further than just royalties. I >> understand that BCP79 restricts what we can say about that in the >> charter, >> but at least mentioning the problem as Stephan suggests is a good idea >> IMO. >> In some sense, this is again part of the "making it easy to >> redistribute". >> >> Jean-Marc >> >> Stephan Wenger wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Russ' language is an improvement. But let's not forget that there are >>> encumbrances that have nothing to do with paying royalties, but are >>> equally >>> problematic from an adoption viewpoint. Examples: >>> >>> 1. Co-marketing requirement: need to put a logo of the rightholder >>> company >>> on one's products acknowledging using the protected technology. >>> 2. Unreasonable (from the viewpoint of the adopter) reciprocity >>> requirements: one of many examples would be "if you use this >>> technology, you >>> agree not to assert, against me or my customers, any of your patents. >>> Otherwise your license terminates.". >>> 3. Requirement for a "postcard license". Such a requirement may rule out >>> open source implementations under certain open source licenses. >>> >>> I believe strongly that a charter that discusses IPR issues should >>> mention >>> at least those three aspects, and/or provide sufficiently vague >>> language to >>> allow for an appropriate reaction to those and other encumbrances >>> that may >>> show up. >>> >>> Royalties are the least of our problems. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Stephan >>> >>> Disclaimer: I have clients that would have problems with all three >>> encumbrances mentioned above. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 1/7/10 11:08 AM, "Peter Saint-Andre"<stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote: >>> >>>> On 1/7/10 9:46 AM, Russ Housley wrote: >>>>> Andy: >>>>> >>>>>>> Although this preference cannot guarantee that the working >>>>>>> group will produce an unencumbered codec, the working group shall >>>>>>> attempt to adhere to the spirit of BCP 79. This preference does not >>>>>>> explicitly rule out the possibility of adapting encumbered >>>>>>> technologies; >>>>>>> such decisions will be made in accordance with the rough >>>>>>> consensus of >>>>>>> the working group. >>>>>> I appreciate the potential difficulty of guaranteeing the >>>>>> unencumbered >>>>>> status of any output of this group. However, I would like this >>>>>> statement to >>>>>> be stronger, saying that this group will only produce a new codec if >>>>>> it is >>>>>> strongly believed by WG rough consensus to either be unencumbered, >>>>>> or freely licensed by the IPR holder(s), if any. >>>>> I do not think that anyone wants the outcome to be yet another >>>>> encumbered codec. I think these words are trying to say what you want, >>>>> but they are also trying to be realistic. >>>>> >>>>> Does the following text strike a better balance? >>>>> >>>>> Although this preference cannot guarantee that the working >>>>> group will produce an unencumbered codec, the working group shall >>>>> follow BCP 79, and adhere to the spirit of BCP 79. The working >>>>> group cannot explicitly rule out the possibility of adapting >>>>> encumbered technologies; however, the working group will try to >>>>> avoid encumbered technologies that require royalties. >>>> That seems reasonable. Although I was only the BoF co-chair, I'll >>>> volunteer to hold the pen on edits to the proposed charter. >>>> >>>> Peter >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> codec mailing list >>> codec@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > > _______________________________________________ codec mailing list codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
- [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Codec … IESG Secretary
- [codec] Fwd: WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio C… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Roni Even
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Robert Elz
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Roni Even
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Mans Nilsson
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Brian West
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Sam Hartman
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Brian West
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Richard Shockey
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Richard Shockey
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Brian West
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Richard Shockey
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Roni Even
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Gregory Maxwell
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Brian West
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Benjamin M. Schwartz
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Brian West
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Gregory Maxwell
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Dean Willis
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Sam Hartman
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Brian West
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Benjamin M. Schwartz
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Russ Housley
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Sam Hartman
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… John C Klensin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Michael Ramalho (mramalho)
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Russ Housley
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Michael Knappe
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephane.proust
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Roni Even
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Xavier Marjou
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Monty Montgomery
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Stefan Sayer
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Monty Montgomery
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Monty Montgomery
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Alexander Chemeris
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Roni Even
- Re: [codec] Conferencing and layering Benjamin M. Schwartz
- Re: [codec] Conferencing and layering Brian Rosen
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Russ Housley
- Re: [codec] [IAB] WG Review: Internet Wideband Au… Gregory M. Lebovitz
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Daniel Petrie
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Roni Even
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Daniel Petrie
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Alexander Chemeris
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephane.proust
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Ron
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… John Kostogiannis
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Sjoerd Simons
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Thorvald Natvig
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Roni Even
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephane.proust
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Ron
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… jari.hagqvist
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Mans Nilsson
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Monty Montgomery
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Mans Nilsson
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephane.proust
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Ron
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] WG Review: Internet Wideband Audio Co… stephen botzko