Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> Sat, 27 February 2021 11:01 UTC
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Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:00:00 +1100
From: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
To: gendispatch@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
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On Fri, Feb 26, 2021, at 22:56, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > My experience is the exact opposite - there were a number of times in > which I wanted to propose text for a document, but then I was pointed > at Github, and I am not at ease with it and did not have a lot of time > for it. So I gave up or, So anyone who asked you to submit an issue or write a pull request should be aware that sometimes they too need to make some effort. As a request, asking someone to contribute on GitHub is fine. It isn't mandatory though. If you are able to, or you plan to contribute often, taking the effort makes it a lot harder for editors to take your input, track it, and integrate changes. However, if you don't, then it is best for all involved if the editors do the work of opening issues and writing pull requests (if that is how they manage the document). We did that for the IESG with QUIC, and for those who were unfamiliar with the process. The goal should be always to take good input when it is offered. However, it always pays to make your input easier to act on. Clear, actionable input is more likely to result in actions, human nature being what it is. It is meeting in the middle. Editors are volunteering their effort too. What we have found is that the discussion is sometimes more work to manage, for both editors and those involved, particularly when it comes to negotiating specific text. But generally the results are far superior. To take an example, there was a discussion about the operational implications of path MTU discovery in QUIC. The initial issue was not especially clear to everyone involved, and the proposed text was not perfect either, but the resulting discussion clarified everything and the final text is crisp, precise, broadly acceptable, and - from my perspective - excellent. I have seen that work on a mailing list before and frankly, it is not so different in the end. Both methods can produce these good outcomes. I find the mailing list version quite a bit less efficient, that is all. What really differs is that on the mailing list, you won't get that sort of engagement on every change. With QUIC, we had that level of engagement on every sentence that was added. So yeah, it cost more, in several ways. One way being that it was not suitable for casual engagement, something that I think needs work, as not every document needs that same level of intensity. I am happy with the results and would recommend the process. Understanding its limitations is important though. We are still learning as a community, even if some of us are very familiar with it. Collectively knowing what is possible, what works, what to avoid, and when, will take some time. I can't, however, accept any of the arguments presented so far that imply that this is bad enough to stop. And the suggestion that this is, or even might be, inherently exclusionary is one I just don't see. Our goal has always been to offer more ways to engage. At worst, I would suggest that your experiences are part of us all learning together.
- [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dominique Lazanski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dominique Lazanski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Kyle Rose
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Juliana Guerra
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF (was: Diversity … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF (was: Diversity … Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF Keith Moore
- [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusi… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jen Linkova
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Colin Perkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Martin Thomson
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… John Wroclawski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Wes Hardaker