Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org> Tue, 02 March 2021 23:46 UTC
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Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 15:46:01 -0800
From: Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/FLhMHeWTMQJr95bKWDPPQjeRJq8>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
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On 3/2/21 2:34 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, at 08:53, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> >> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:37 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net >> <mailto:huitema@huitema.net>> wrote: >> >> On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, Keith Moore wrote: >> >>> On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote: >>> >>> >>>> This is why it is important to set the record straight on >>>> this bit of >>>> folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the >>>> OK gesture >>>> but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who >>>> use it. It >>>> has become a weapon to attack opponents. >>> >>> I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious >>> about creating new weapons that can be used to attack >>> opponents". Because people can and will use such weapons for >>> purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are >>> promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their >>> interests. It's often easier to attack people personally than >>> to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very >>> careful about legitimizing such attacks. >> >> It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on >> veterans. In the French air force, that gesture was part of the >> standard ground check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the >> mechanics used it to signal all clear. I suppose the same was >> true in other NATO countries. As a consequence, it was widely >> used in regular communication between service members to signal >> that things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it out of >> habit, and I suppose others do too. >> >> -- Christian Huitema >> >> >> The issue is not the fact that it is a legitimate gesture with a >> widespread legitimate use. What creates an issue is that a particular >> group of people decided to subvert that meaning. > > That is a totally unworkable standard. Exactly! There was no issue created by authoritarian communist dictatorships deciding to subvert the meaning of "democratic" or "people's republic". We all knew that the Federal Republic of Germany was the good guys and the German Democratic Republic was the bad guys and we all still understood what "democracy" meant. > By that standard, if "the racists"[tm] decided to go all in on the "I > like my coffee" memes (CONTENT WARNING: search at your peril) then me > slurping down my large coffee without milk becomes a racist and > vaguely homoerotic act with no change of intent or behaviour from me. We can't allow some fringe group of people-- be they PHB's swaggering bullies or the leftists who got punked by 4chan trolls-- to decide what words mean for the rest of us. The OK sign is used as part of a standard ground check in the French air force. It's also used by divers to tell each other that things are just fine underwater. And if some rando somewhere thinks it's the symbol of white supremacy then just hope he's not flying your plane or diving with you. Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
- [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dominique Lazanski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dominique Lazanski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Kyle Rose
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Juliana Guerra
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF (was: Diversity … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF (was: Diversity … Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF Keith Moore
- [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusi… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jen Linkova
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Colin Perkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Martin Thomson
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… John Wroclawski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Wes Hardaker