Re: Supervision under previous admin relationships (was Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work)
John C Klensin <john@jck.com> Fri, 02 August 2019 18:43 UTC
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Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 14:43:13 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john@jck.com>
To: Michael StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Supervision under previous admin relationships (was Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work)
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--On Thursday, August 1, 2019 18:55 -0400 Michael StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net> wrote: >... > So you're basically saying that what was in 4071 didn't > reflect the actual legal landscape. E.g. the authorities > granted to the IAOC to manage/control/evaluate the IAD didn't > really exist and there wasn't actually a formal agreement with > ISOC to allow for the setting of performance goals or even > hiring and firing? > > And I seem to remember in one of the message chains a comment > that the 6635 language that said "evaluate the RSE" got short > shrift from ISOC as well? So, from the ISOC's point of view, > as the contract owner, at least part of 6635 did not reflect > the actual legal landscape - correct? Michael, Independent of the substance of Andrew's reply --which I think is more relevant than this note going forward -- I think we (the IETF and its penumbra) actually have a considerable history of documents that read as charters or legal requirements that are actually no better than aspirational statements of general intent. They include various group charters that have not been the result of formal EITF consensus calls even if the community was asked for comment, IPR policies that depend on assertions of copyright ownership that various of us have been told by competent specialist lawyers would never told up and patent policies that don't have explicit agreement of relevant/ controlling parties, at least one procedural MOU that a party that was then required to sign off on to make it valid wasn't consulted about, and probably a few others. We've dealt with a few other issues by just ignoring them and hoping that problems would not arise (and, so far, they haven't). For many of those issues, the IETF's assertion that everyone is participating as an individual independent of any employer affiliations when people are attending with employer support and employment contracts that effectively say otherwise is a particular source of vunerability (something we've been repeatedly told by at least the previous generation of IETF legal counsel). IANAL, but my understanding is that as long as everyone behaves to a reasonable approximations of good faith and does not specifically challenge them, such aspirational statements and guidelines are just fine. If there were specific challenges involving real lawyers and specific claims of damage being caused by how we do business, things could get far too interesting. The transition to the IETF LLC arrangement probably helps, or will evolve to help, with some of those issues but is irrelevant to others. It may actually complicate yet a few others, including posing choices between higher overhead costs and higher-risk or more complex arrangements in some cases. As one example from earlier in this set of threads, the question of "should X be an employee or a contractor?", especially if we are using more than 50% of X's time, can be a matter requiring skills HR and employment law advice that is sensitive to jurisdictional issues. For an organization the size that ISOC is now, that is a necessary overhead expense that is spread across the organization. If ISOC is willing to lend their sources of that advice without charging the IETF LLC, that is clearly a win. But, should some future ISOC administration take the position that the IETF wanted to be a semi-independent and disregarded entity and therefore that such issues are the IETF LLC's problem, we, and the LLC Board members at that time, could be faced with more constraints on choices than we would probably consider ideal. If we don't like or want to accept that situation going forward, I suggest that we have a great deal of housecleaning to do, an activity that would go far beyond the current RSE issues... perhaps to the point that we would consider them far from the greatest of the problems that would need cleaning up. That is not legal advice or even an attempt at a summary of legal issues. Anyone who accepts in in lieu of either is likely to get what they paid for or somewhat less. It is, perhaps, an over-long restatement and application of the old principles about free lunches and about the difficulties of doing business with one's head in the sand. best, john
- RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Sarah B
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Salz, Rich
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Sarah Banks
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Sarah Banks
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Leif Johansson
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Richard Barnes
- Re: [Rsoc] RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of W… Adam Roach
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Salz, Rich
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Sarah Banks
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work heather flanagan
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Paul Hoffman
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Leif Johansson
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Leif Johansson
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Keith Moore
- Re: [Rsoc] RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of W… Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Nico Williams
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work S Moonesamy
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work John Levine
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Nico Williams
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Nevil Brownlee
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Leif Johansson
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Bob Hinden
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Salz, Rich
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Michael Richardson
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work S Moonesamy
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Jari Arkko
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Rsoc] RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of W… Sarah Banks
- Re: [Rsoc] RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of W… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Rsoc] RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of W… Sarah Banks
- Re: [Rsoc] RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of W… S Moonesamy
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work John Wroclawski
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Bob Hinden
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Leif Johansson
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Leif Johansson
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Livingood, Jason
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Stephen Farrell
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Ole Jacobsen
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Livingood, Jason
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Wes Hardaker
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Michael Richardson
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Michael Richardson
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Stephen Farrell
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Alissa Cooper
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Alissa Cooper
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Benjamin Kaduk
- Supervision under previous admin relationships (w… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Michael StJohns
- Re: Supervision under previous admin relationship… Michael StJohns
- Re: Supervision under previous admin relationship… Stephen Farrell
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Supervision under previous admin relationship… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Alissa Cooper
- Re: Supervision under previous admin relationship… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Supervision under previous admin relationship… John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor (RSE) Statement of Work Benjamin Kaduk