Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.txt
Lee Howard <lee@asgard.org> Sat, 03 November 2018 11:36 UTC
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Subject: Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.txt
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, ipv6@ietf.org
References: <153973137181.9473.10666616544238076833@ietfa.amsl.com> <6264F7A1-59EB-467D-A576-E5F2F0DEE7DD@lists.zabbadoz.net> <CACWOCC-xL0PfkNHgCqhB28GE-jCWUUagQE4PukdpXK+YHgWpyg@mail.gmail.com> <97ba35ff-b4a7-314c-3010-297d06be645d@foobar.org> <01c2a55e-1888-3ebc-3252-11b9005b8272@gmail.com> <0abd7b4d-b0e0-b1bc-2468-678befbc7cac@asgard.org> <3e155df0-5799-8788-5fbe-767a7421828c@gmail.com>
From: Lee Howard <lee@asgard.org>
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Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2018 17:05:59 +0530
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Sorry, I didn't trim because I think it's all context... On 11/3/18 12:50 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2018-11-02 19:09, Lee Howard wrote: >> On 11/1/18 1:13 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 2018-10-31 22:24, Nick Hilliard wrote: >>>> Job Snijders wrote on 30/10/2018 22:27: >>>>> Can you (or others running FreeBSD EXPERIMENTAL) share reports on how >>>>> this pans out in practise? >>>> Looking at the code, it acts by blocking outbound ipv4 frames from being >>>> transmitted on ethernet interfaces. This would mean - for example - >>>> that if there were a default route already configured on the receiving >>>> device, any userland code attempting to use ipv4 services would block >>>> until ARP times out for the default route (default 20 minutes on freebsd). >>>> >>>> The only part of the ipv6only discussion that was uncontroversial was >>>> implementation of the kernel processing side of this flag - there's very >>>> little to go wrong when toggling a single flag. >>>> >>>> The problem area is how to handle the interpretation of this flag in >>>> userland and in the kernel, which is a much more difficult problem. >>> It's a question, but I don't know why it's a problem. It isn't an interop >>> problem, because each host is an independent actor in this. And we now have >>> running code proof that legacy hosts aren't affected. So I'd say that from >>> a protocol spec point of view, it's actually a non-issue. >> Doesn't it mean that user space applications on a host that had/expected >> IPv4 would fail? > Well yes, but that is presumably the network administrator's intention, > so I'm not sure I'd characterise it as am interop issue exactly, and it's > not an interop issues *involving the RA message itself*. > >> I think I described my interop concern: >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/?qdr=m&so=frm >> >> IPv4-only hosts, and dual-stack hosts >> that do not recognize the new >> flag, may continue to attempt IPv4 operations >> >> If some devices require IPv4 and others disable IPv4, you have lost >> connectivity between systems on a local network. As written, this is not >> considered a misconfiguration by the administrator who sets the flag. > Indeed not. The admin will presumably be happy at this result. > I don't think we disagree about the effect, just about whether > it's desirable. > >>>> This also disregards the issue of whether the flag was either necessary >>>> or a good idea to start with, and nearly 700 emails into this >>>> discussion, the WG seems to be hopelessly divided on these issues. >>> I'll leave that one to the WG chair who isn't a co-author. But I will >>> say that in my mind the issue is whether the feature is one that will >>> be valuable in 5, 10 or 20 years time rather than whether it's valuable >>> today. >> I've come into the camp that believes that in 10 or 20 years IPv4 will >> be disabled by default. When people post to stackoverflow complaining >> that their 10-20 year old devices are unreachable from their brand new >> devices, the response will be, "The old stuff might be using the old >> protocol, IPv4. Go into Control Panel, Networking, Protocols, select >> IPv4, click enable." >> >> If that's likely, then this flag is only useful in the interim 5 years. >> During that time, I would like to maximize connectivity. >> >> If a network administrator wants central control over IPv4/IPv6 >> enablement in hosts, there are better, more centralized tools for that. >> As a principle, host behavior should be managed by host management >> tools, and not by hints from a router. > I'm not sure how that can work on a BYOD network. On a fully managed network, > sure, we could "easily" invent a solution. Taken all-in-all, then, the use case for this flag is a network where the administrator: 1. does not know what's on the network, 2. expects that there are some applications using IPv4, 3. understands that IPv4 will continue to work locally, 3b. except for dual-stack hosts that honor the flag, 4. understands that applications may have already negotiated IPv4 connectivity, 5. desires to break communications for 3b and 4, and prevent IPv4 Internet access. It's not just that administrator accepts that 3b and 4 won't work, but as you said above, "The admin will presumably be happy with this result." This seems to me a very narrow application. Lee > > Brian >
- I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.txt internet-drafts
- Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-fla… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-fla… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Ole Troan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… David Schinazi
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Ole Troan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Jen Linkova
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Job Snijders
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Alejandro Acosta
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Mark Smith
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Job Snijders
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Ole Troan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Ole Troan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Jen Linkova
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Sander Steffann
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Sander Steffann
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Jen Linkova
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Sander Steffann
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… 神明達哉
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Ole Troan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… sthaug
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Mark Smith
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Ole Troan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Lee Howard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Ola Thoresen
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Job Snijders
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Mark Andrews
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Roger Jørgensen
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Nick Hilliard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… sthaug
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Ole Troan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Tim Chown
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Tim Chown
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Philip Homburg
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Philip Homburg
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Lee Howard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… 神明達哉
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Nick Hilliard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Nick Hilliard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… David Farmer
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Fernando Gont
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Fernando Gont
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Mark Smith
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Nick Hilliard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Tim Chown
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Fernando Gont
- Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ip… Sander Steffann
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Fernando Gont
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Fernando Gont
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Ole Troan
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Lee Howard
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… 神明達哉
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Tim Chown
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Tim Chown
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Suresh Krishnan
- Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ip… Fernando Gont
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Fernando Gont
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Fernando Gont
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Fernando Gont
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Ole Troan
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Job Snijders
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Running code, sending (Was: I-D Action: draft… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Running code, sending (Was: I-D Action: draft… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Running code, sending (Was: I-D Action: draft… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Job Snijders
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Running code, sending (Was: I-D Action: draft… Lee Howard
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Lee Howard
- Interop (was: Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: … Toerless Eckert
- Re: Interop Lee Howard
- Re: Interop Toerless Eckert
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Fernando Gont
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Mark Andrews
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Mark Andrews
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Mark Andrews
- Re: Running code, sending (Was: I-D Action: draft… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Ole Troan
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Fernando Gont
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Toerless Eckert
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian Haberman
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Bob Hinden
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian Haberman
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Mikael Abrahamsson
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Mark Smith
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Mark Smith
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Philip Homburg
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Toerless Eckert
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Toerless Eckert
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Job Snijders
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Toerless Eckert
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Mark Smith
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Toerless Eckert
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Philip Homburg
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Nick Hilliard
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Mark Smith
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Mark Smith
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- Re: Running code - IPv6 mDNS MacBook Pro privacy … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Running code - IPv6 mDNS MacBook Pro privacy … David Schinazi
- Re: Running code - IPv6 mDNS MacBook Pro privacy … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Running code - IPv6 mDNS MacBook Pro privacy … Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Toerless Eckert
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… David Farmer
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Simon Hobson
- Re: Running code - IPv6 mDNS MacBook Pro privacy … Toerless Eckert
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Toerless Eckert
- RE: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code (Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6ma… Toerless Eckert
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Joel Jaeggli
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… tom petch
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-ipv6only-flag-03.… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Lee Howard
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Lee Howard
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Running code, sending (Was: I-D Action: draft… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Lee Howard
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Lee Howard
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Jen Linkova
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Nick Hilliard
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Nick Hilliard
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Bob Hinden
- Re: you have running code ... I-D Action: draft-i… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)