RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?)
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Mon, 01 June 2020 17:41 UTC
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Philip Homburg <pch-ipv6-ietf-6@u-1.phicoh.com>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?)
Thread-Topic: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?)
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 17:41:20 +0000
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Philip, good message but I do see an element of truth in what the original poster was trying to communicate. In aviation, we often deal with wireless links with bandwidth less than 1Mbps - sometimes even *much* less. Asking those links to carry at least two IPv6 addresses per packet is a considerable commitment of resources, but that is our current plan. Should we be open to considering alternatives? Thanks - Fred > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Philip Homburg > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2020 9:45 AM > To: ipv6@ietf.org > Subject: Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?) > > In your letter dated Fri, 29 May 2020 19:12:34 +0200 you wrote: > >IMHO, it is a misguided dogma to think that RFC8200 128 bit > >addresses IPv6 is a one-size-fits-all solution not only for > >what it was built for, the Internet, but also all arbitrary controlled > >networks - for the infinite future! > > For IPv4, one-size-fits-all was a good thing. Anybody who remembers > the nightmare of many different network protocols, all slightly different > knows how great it was to have just one protocol. > > Even in the early days, one-size-fits-all was a bit of a problem. I remember > SLIP and PPP header compression trying do deal with big headers on slow links. > > Right now we have IPv6, which can address all devices in the world. Which is > great for software, no need to worry where something is, just generate an > IPv6 packet and it will get there somehow. > > If we look at the overhead of IPv6 then certainly at speed of 100 Mbps and > higher, the effect of bigger addresses is left in the noise. > > Obviously, IPv6 on slow links in a limited domain is not a great fit. Does > that mean that IPv6 has to change? What is the benefit for all those devices > that are on fast links and have no problem? > > >IoT with IPv6 is an extreme pain (header compression, MTU). > >Most controlled networks do not even want global addresses (security, > >segment based app-gateway architectures, ...). > > My first question would be, why not use IPv4 if address size and MTU are > a problem? IPv4 is certainly a mature technology. > > >16-bit/32-bit/48-bit address sizes would be highly desirable. > >Even the 1980'th CLNP network protocol had variable sized addresses. > > Nobody who does low level software wants veriable size anything. > > If I compare processing an IPv4 header (which is variable size) with an IPv6 > header, then dealing with an IPv6 header is so much easier. With variable > length addresses that would only get worse. > > >IPv6 has not solved core problems to be even equal to L2 switching: > >plug routers together, get automatic connectivity, no bother about addresses. > >CLNP was a lot closer to that goal too. > > Both DHCPv6 PD and homenet deal with this problem. > > >but think really about another > >instance of IPv6-NG, but this time backward compatible. > > I doubt that the world is waiting for a third protocol that brings a > completely new set of issues. > > And I have no clue what a backward compatible internet protocol is supposed > to look like. People have complained for years that IPv6 is not backward > compatible with IPv4, but in all that time I have never seen a sensible > protocol that is actually backward compatible with IPv4. > > >If we continue to proliferate this "one-size-fits-all" myth, > >then we are just continuing to extend our own version of > >a winchester mystery house and kill our industry. > > I doubt that the IETF has any power to stop a new local networking protocol. > > If, for example, IoT needs a light weight local networking protocol, then > anybody can just design it. It may help adoption if there is an easy way > to convert to and from IPv6, but such a protocol can easily exist outside > the internet world. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > --------------------------------------------------------------------
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Philip Homburg
- So where have all these new 6man WG people come f… Mark Smith
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… tom petch
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… otroan
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Bernier, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Nick Hilliard
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Xing Li
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Sander Steffann
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… otroan
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Adrian Farrel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… 神明達哉
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Fernando Gont
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Turchanyi Geza
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Need a journalist (Re: So where have all these ne… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Need a journalist (Re: So where have all thes… Ca By
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Fred Baker
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ted Lemon
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Jared Mauch
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all… Toerless Eckert
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Toerless Eckert
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Mark Smith
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Mark Smith
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ole Troan
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Carsten Bormann
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Toerless Eckert
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Philip Homburg
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… John Scudder
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Philip Homburg