Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter
Nicholas Weaver <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Wed, 22 October 2008 12:45 UTC
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From: Nicholas Weaver <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>
To: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@nw.neclab.eu>
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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 05:45:48 -0700
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Cc: tana@ietf.org, Nicholas Weaver <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>, p2pi@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org, Michael Welzl <michael.welzl@uibk.ac.at>
Subject: Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter
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On Oct 22, 2008, at 1:49 AM, Rolf Winter wrote: >> >> Besides, there are ISPs that are worried about the effect >> that P2P have on other applications when the link is >> saturated, but otherwise they do not care. P2P would be >> treated like best effort in non-saturated situations (a more >> ECN type approach). > > That is exactly the point. P2P should not "harm" inelastic traffic. > In order to do that, queues should not build up as a consequence of > the P2P traffic. The charter according to my interpretation says > that the most suitable of the set of available means should be used > or any combination of it that makes sense. There are actually at least two sources of harm that BitTorrent and related bulk-data P2P protocols can cause: A) Self harm on access-link buffers: Simply because the protocol will very easily saturate uplinks for residences, and devices ON the uplinks (NAT boxes, etc) are often criminally overbuffered. This is not really affected by the multiple-TCP flow nature of the protocols in question, as a single TCP flow will happily grab the full buffer as well, but P2P protocols tend to be the heaviest user of the uplink. B) Congestion on shared-access uplinks: DOCSIS is explicitly a shared-bandwidth media. Thus a few users of a P2P protocol (many- flow, full-data-rate) can acquire a large amount of the shared channel. Part of the problem: A and B may require different strategies and solutions: A is the one which the P2P developers are most interested in, because that directly harms their customers. If you provide a solution to A, it will be deployed, and quickly. B is the source of conflicts between the ISP and P2P, why ISPs have tried managing the upload rate, and why some ISPs, notably Comcast, are shifting to a network-enforced fairness approach. Dealing with B is what I personally consider essential for a scavenger class protocol, and the more interesting problem, but I think it may be trickier, because you can solve A but not B with delay-based hacks. But solving B also has another problem: If P2P program Gamma and P2P program Delta are sharing the same uplink, and Gamma implements a scavenger protocol, its going to get squeezed out if congestion occurs on the uplink and, if any reciprocity is involved, the user's download is also going to suffer. So there may be reasons for P2P developers to use techniques which solve A AND B, but there doesn't seem to be so clear an incentive for such solutions over solutions for A alone. _______________________________________________ p2pi mailing list p2pi@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Bruce Davie
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Joe Touch
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Joe Touch
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Salman Abdul Baset
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Eddy, Wesley M. (GRC-RCN0)[VZ]
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Murari Sridharan
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Caitlin Bestler
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] [tana] TANA proposed charter Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Kurt Tutschku
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Michael Menth
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Michael Welzl
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Roland Bless
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Roland Bless
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Mark Allman
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Bryan Ford
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet marking qu… John Leslie
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… John Leslie
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Livingood, Jason
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter -- packet… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Robb Topolski
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Bruce Davie
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Robb Topolski