Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document
John Leslie <john@jlc.net> Fri, 12 December 2014 17:34 UTC
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 12:34:15 -0500
From: John Leslie <john@jlc.net>
To: Peter Saint-Andre - &yet <peter@andyet.net>
Message-ID: <20141212173415.GH47023@verdi>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document
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On Sat, 06 Dec 2014, Peter Saint-Andre - &yet <peter@andyet.net> wrote: > On 12/4/14, 9:08 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >> On 12/4/14 07:45, Peter Saint-Andre - &yet wrote: >>> On 12/4/14, 8:00 AM, Ron wrote: >>>> On Wed, Dec 03, 2014 at 07:20:45PM -0700, Peter Saint-Andre - &yet >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> IMHO we need to either pull out the future-oriented text entirely >>>>> (which has its own problems) or significantly improve it. I would >>>>> be happy to propose text for the latter. I share Peter's concern: but not knowing what text is proposed, I'm not ready to respond to specifics. Generally, we _cannot_ bind any future WG; and we _must_ avoid making a WG statement about the validity of any IPR claims... [Ron@debian responded:] >>>> I'd definitely be interested in seeing proposals from you to improve >>>> upon these things. It seemed premature to explore this until we had >>>> some sense of whether this kind of compromise could fly at all, but >>>> now that it seems it can, I think these are important details for us >>>> to clarify as best we can. >>> >>> OK, I'll get to work. :-) [Adam Roach responded:] >> Awesome, thanks. I've always found your prose to be clearer and easier >> to read than mine anyway. :) >> >> When you draft your text, keep in mind that what we're trying to do is >> capture the essence of the agreement that we've formed a critical mass >> around. The less formal (i.e., not really document-ready) version of >> this is: ============================== Adam's text ============================== >>> "WebRTC devices MUST implement both VP8 and H.264. If compelling >>> evidence arises that one of the codecs is available for use on a >>> royalty-free basis, such as all IPR declarations known for the codec >>> being of (IETF) Royalty-Free or (ISO) type 1, the IETF will change >>> this normative statement to indicate that only that codec is required. >>> For absolute, crystal clarity, this provision is only applicable to >>> WebRTC devices, and not to WebRTC User Agents." ============================== Adam's text ============================== >> >> There's nuance to be added there, for sure, but I'd encourage you not to >> color way outside those lines. Expanding scope to discuss issues such as >> *other* circumstances that may cause revisiting the MTI, for example, >> are far more likely to weaken consensus than they are to strengthen it. (I don't know whether this is the text which Hawaii hummed for.) Actually, I have less problems with this text than with other versions I have seen. It lists a specific condition of IPR declarations which is not subject to on-list arguments (which is acceptable), but goes beyond that with "such as" (which I find worrysome). Obviously, the condition it listed is wildly improbable except for the "such as" language (which would enable on-list arguments). Further, the pretense that this document could bind a future WG is ridiculous. [Peter responded to Adam:] > I see two kinds of triggers: > > 1. A trigger that is specific to the alternatives we have been presented > so far. That is: only H.264 or VP8 (or both) can be MTI. If we learn > that one of them can be used royalty-free, then that codec will be the > only MTI codec. > > Questions: > > 1a. Does this trigger fire as soon as one codec is learned to be usable > royalty-free? So this is a first-past-the-post contest? (Let's say codec > "c1" is learned to be usable RF and the next week or month or quarter > "c2" is learned to be usable RF. What happens?) > > 1b. Text along the lines of "the IETF will change this normative > statement" does not make it clear how that will happen. Is there an > automatic trigger (i.e., it's built into this document)? Or does the > IETF need to do something (e.g., publish an RFC that obsoletes this one)? > > (There is some interaction between 1a and 1b. If some process is needed > to declare "c1" the only MTI, then it's possible that we might learn > that "c2" can also be used RF before the obsoleting RFC can be published.) Peter is not being difficult here: no process is specified for the IETF to "change this normative statement", and it could take many months to do so. > 2. A trigger that is more general and future-proof. That is: someday > (perhaps before too much longer on the standardization timescale) we > will have other alternatives to consider: H.265, VP9, VP10, Daala, and > who knows what. (I'd be amazed if we didn't have at least one of these ready to use before this document is published as an RFC.) > Another question: > > 2a. There is some interaction between 1b and 2. Let's say it takes us 10 > years to learn that "c1" can be used RF. Hurray! But by that time, we > might have "c3" and "c4" and "c5" to consider. Are we forbidden from > considering anything but "c1" and "c2" at that time? Peter _is_ being difficult here: obviously nothing we could do would bind us or any other WG that tightly. > I *think* that the trigger you're talking about is #1. Personally I am > much more interested in #2 because I don't think we'll really settle > this issue in the medium term or long term until we have the video > equivalent of Opus. IMHO, if we accept this text, we'll effectively bind future implementations to implement both H.264 and VP8 for many years to come. YMMV, of course... > Because I think we're talking about different triggers for different > purposes, my impression is that the text we have in mind would differ > significantly (in particular, I feel no compulsion to "stay within the > lines" because I think those lines are not useful, and indeed are > positively harmful, in the long term). +1 -- John Leslie <john@jlc.net>
- [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Iñaki Baz Castillo