Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document, MTI (again, still, sorry)
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Thu, 04 December 2014 02:25 UTC
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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:25:00 -0800
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To: David Singer <singer@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document, MTI (again, still, sorry)
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Many companies, of various market capitalizations, are shipping VP8 today, indicating the amount of concern they have for the Nokia declaration. But as I said during the meeting, if you really are concerned about this, we would be happy to give you a VP8 binary of some sort. On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:08 PM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote: > You're missing something. I am considering a company that has ipr in > *other* aspects of webrtc, that gives a license to that only to conformant > implementations. Not the codec. > > What do you do? Defy the Nokia declaration, defy the 'must' and not do vp8 > and be non-conformant, or not do webrtc at all? None are good choices. > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Dec 3, 2014, at 5:25 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:33 AM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote: > >> As I understand it, the recent face to face meeting decided to draft > the requirement that WebRTC browsers be required to implement both VP8 and > H.264, and get feedback on this, on the list. > >> > >> This is some feedback. > >> > >> > >> > >> I’d like to point out that this could easily place companies in an > impossible position. > >> > >> Consider: it is not uncommon for IPR owners to grant a license (often > free) only to ‘conforming implementations’. (A common rationale is that > they want to use their IPR to bring convergence and interoperability to the > industry). Let’s hypothesize that this happens, now or in future, from > Company X, for some IPR in the WebRTC specifications. > >> > >> Consider also: we have an “unwilling to license” statement from Nokia > on VP8, on the formal record (and including a long list of patents). > >> > >> Consider finally: a small company for whom WebRTC is important. > >> > >> > >> > >> Let’s look at the choices: > >> > >> 1. Follow the mandate, implement VP8, and risk a ruinous lawsuit from > Nokia. > >> > >> 2. Reject the mandate, do not implement VP8, and be formally therefore > not conformant and therefore not in receipt of a license from company X; > risk a ruinous lawsuit from X. > >> > >> 3. Do not implement WebRTC, and risk a ruinous loss of relevance. > > > > > > I don't see the risk of 1. having changed because of the IETF's > > statement. Plenty of small companies are already doing 1. and have had > > to risk getting sued by Nokia at this point in time already. In fact, > > it's a risk that small companies always have to deal with since there > > is so much patented technology around that you invariable will step on > > something. I doubt very much that the IETF's decision has any impact > > on small business' risk in that space at all. > > > > > >> I do not think that the IETF should be placing anyone into the position > of having three extremely unpalatable choices. > > > > For a small company in the WebRTC space, 3. is a non-choice. 2. Is > > more of a business decision than an IP decision - which market are you > > trying to address? Are you trying to be interoperable with (current) > > browsers - then implement VP8. Are you trying to be interoperable with > > legacy devices - then implement H.264 (and probably even H.263). > > > > If you are trying to argue for a large company, the situation changes. > > However, as a large company, you tend to have an existing portfolio of > > patents. You're already playing the game of patents. As long as your > > hypothetical "IPR owners to grant a license only to ‘conforming > > implementations’" doesn't happen, you are free to choose 2. and avoid > > Nokia. > > > > As for the threat in your option 2. - I can only see Google with IPR > > around VP8. Now, Google's IPR statement on WebM codecs, which includes > > VP8 and VP9 currently states: "Google hereby grants to you a > > perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, > > irrevocable (except as stated in this section) patent license" > > http://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/ > > The word "perpetual" implies (to my non-lawyer eyes) that they can't > > suddenly change this to mean "only if you are conformant to the > > standard". So you can't be referring to such a risk associated with > > VP8 being created by Google. I don't know which other company you > > would want to be afraid of for your hypothetical threat in 2. Could > > you clarify? > > > > > > Best Regards, > > Silvia. > > > > > >> (Yes, I am aware that #2 is ‘unlikely’, but one day someone will decide > that the “only to conformant implementations” clause needs to be real and > enforced, and will do this; our hypothetical small company might prefer not > to be the example case.) > >> > >> (I use a small company as the example, because for them the risk is > bankruptcy, but of course no-one likes to step into the path of trouble > even if they have the resources to weather it.) > >> > >> Dave Singer > >> > >> singer@mac.com > >> > >> David Singer > >> Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> rtcweb mailing list > >> rtcweb@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >
- [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Iñaki Baz Castillo