Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Summary of Application Developers' opinions of the current WebRTC API and SDP as a control surface)
Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> Fri, 19 July 2013 17:29 UTC
Return-Path: <roman@telurix.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B6B21E80B6 for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:29:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.869
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.107, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eV1TJEIRgpXr for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:29:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com (mail-we0-f169.google.com [74.125.82.169]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24E811E8128 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:29:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-we0-f169.google.com with SMTP id n57so4313168wev.14 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:29:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=vhYh3IBF5c/Dy4JAUrds8XewwbMC7oTrhvk/c8U7/Zg=; b=HVgWGk2olAqGgGLq6FqsgBLZZlNg95vwwXMfalweIum3Xzai7c0VqNyIA6xSRmbXv1 ZUGBsJYPhkyqfdN8gIcMZ/p6vgci+ewD7ZLYt93XUacnYcQNkdQ1WBlhg3bmmm3fMKWy Pq1SeYeUyRSwYej2Bkb8olSfN55uF6f7AZ+yZnW84z/6ssPIvjZwD03pI5r2V2g+Xuk/ Aw71NVTPVlUBz3qeMpnFoMAbc9VUHjjS54NQ26ZfgmUcMRtG5OUy173C2m+DESAVUk2F ri5uhS+zNHxfpqE+eVG5suZESahgdBKghFqpuKfN5WzuCi75mC3fMcbceQpTdZ6TK801 mCdQ==
X-Received: by 10.180.187.235 with SMTP id fv11mr12102279wic.65.1374254972498; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:29:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-we0-x22a.google.com (mail-we0-x22a.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::22a]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f8sm4874798wiv.0.2013.07.19.10.29.31 for <rtcweb@ietf.org> (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:29:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-we0-f170.google.com with SMTP id w57so4318077wes.15 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:29:30 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.180.184.12 with SMTP id eq12mr2934957wic.8.1374254970717; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:29:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.216.221.202 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:29:30 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <51E96B5B.2050302@nostrum.com>
References: <CAJrXDUGMohpBdi-ft-o_uE7ewFkw7wRY9x7gYEncjov7qi-Bew@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBPa4wBS8pYq=0wesMOfL6TkeC7QGAZ8pWwOcnkhkJqWfA@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUFxo8P8wxh8jX3019yPQOuwQ0eVdsFmRXsbWdWinnc5oA@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBOTKpmFC34waqZ4kA-P8t+E6yY9gX1JFCHhsBH0+CF-Qw@mail.gmail.com> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C30BC0F@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAD5OKxtKLMf_d=8GSMrqfNhDHPe9MFP2ZTKzZHFn9CyMr-gSVQ@mail.gmail.com> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C30C833@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAD5OKxvGfkgRp6tXwbOu_kVteHiBBqsyR5ixH18FMKjCNGO8VQ@mail.gmail.com> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C30CD1E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <BLU401-EAS386F88B3FE140492B39B59693610@phx.gbl> <AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A484213E41E7@TK5EX14MBXC265.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <C50FDAD5-492C-4A83-AD6D-464242FB4A05@iii.ca> <CALiegfneUj=kzDjR_E1=S-bqAajaPUE3f_A2g8oGriFyPhamPA@mail.gmail.com> <51E96B5B.2050302@nostrum.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:29:30 -0400
Message-ID: <CAD5OKxsgSoRg=OcAKLWZpQNzseW5oSHimoa83LHXegZad4i=sA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11c3669e5c4faf04e1e0ab5d"
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlGadchcGjuZNQv6LW6mM5JRqU5m3j7CmqlIvivPu5piVGpFH8HC7Yyq5QceMEW2cYz7rkp
Cc: "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, "public-webrtc@w3.org" <public-webrtc@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Summary of Application Developers' opinions of the current WebRTC API and SDP as a control surface)
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 17:29:50 -0000
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote: > I think this is a hopelessly naïve interpretation of the facts on the > ground. Simply discarding SDP doesn't magically make the underlying issues > go away. We would still need to settle a vast number of issues around > things like simulcast, FEC, codec parameters, indication of supported > codecs, correlation of RTP streams with MediaStreamTracks, attempts by both > parties to operate on the same stream simultaneously [1], etc. Basically, > with very rare exception, the same set of problems that we need to solve if > we *don't* throw SDP out the window. > I would argue that we are not as naïve as you think. First of all, a lot of the issues you are talking about are not yet solved. At the same time we have something already working and useful with current browser implementation. So, what we want is to have these features released as version 1.0. The problem that we face, that when you implement all the above mentioned features, even though the API will stay the same, SDP that it will produce will change, and that will require all, except the simplest application, and all external components interfacing WebRTC clients to change. And then when more features are implemented and more different versions are in use more and more interop for applications and external components will be required. What we want is an API that is not based on blob with unpredictable data. Second, offer/answer and SDP introduce a number of negotiation constraints that really should not be there. They cause unrelated things to be negotiated together. It should be possible to negotiate a data connection and then add and remove media streams without renegotiating the underlying data connection. To force selection of single codec you need to do two offer/answer exchanges, which caused by no other reason then framework limitations. Resolution of glare is restricted to offer back off. Furthermore, even from the point of view of offer/answer the current API is broken. It does not allow forking. It introduces a new PRANSWER which is not a part of normal offer/answer specification. It does not allow change send media parameters (ie change send codec or send codec parameters) without doing an offer/answer exchange, which is not necessary with normal offer/answer framework. So, what we are proposing is to map exiting implemented browser functionality to API and get rid of SDP. Ideally we should get rid of offer/answer as well but if it is too much work we can leave with it for version 1.0. This way we get predictable behavior based on predictable input. If we miss some of the future capabilities and they would require API modification to implement, we can deal with it in 2.0. In API, unlike network protocols, predictability and testability counts more then ability for future extension. _____________ Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' opini… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Binod
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Jim Barnett
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Jim Barnett
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application Dev… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Summary… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo