Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' opinions of the current WebRTC API and SDP as a control surface
Robin Raymond <robin@hookflash.com> Sat, 20 July 2013 03:17 UTC
Return-Path: <robin@hookflash.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C48721E80C6 for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:17:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.076
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.076 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.522, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KDuRLKmlnZcw for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ie0-f173.google.com (mail-ie0-f173.google.com [209.85.223.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E4721F9D75 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ie0-f173.google.com with SMTP id k13so10933355iea.18 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:17:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=gg0aENs2YMJaIClN2K45rlz+F9qP5mZIvhDwhloUBDM=; b=Jx+115sG0MX6FJbRxkzqoLusND2vPlHj2vFFaqB6hF8CDpWsbSGXfdBTBvS8LjlSvh BHPsCIYriectCCUddN3q4su9QqDV6vaEt8XRkg1GWtIA0JnlcEIFPrbsYTvwFeyVLXBD 2xX5BdY/ji3jSRUepDVwXr/NiP5be8EOUmNUHsb9ssoxHR9i99gXtYDihczTkMXTViwQ y3yxg1G1Og3tfCzcFVrLRssCUXDBynIeQv1rxNe1Kq4qAiYjgWeT6faHl5f/fHTNubo1 RJiq8xgUnXp2bdkpnJ0Sx8Ts2qFArOdH3C20QKQejS9UrLx6dMPipHBxtsKjW00dJ23f DFmQ==
X-Received: by 10.50.130.113 with SMTP id od17mr4760391igb.10.1374290272858; Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:17:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from Robins-MacBook-Pro.local (CPE602ad08742f7-CM602ad08742f4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com. [99.224.116.224]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id nm17sm42936580igb.5.2013.07.19.20.17.49 for <multiple recipients> (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:17:51 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <51EA015B.2030509@hookflash.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 23:17:47 -0400
From: Robin Raymond <robin@hookflash.com>
User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.8 (Macintosh/20130427)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
References: <CAJrXDUGMohpBdi-ft-o_uE7ewFkw7wRY9x7gYEncjov7qi-Bew@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBPa4wBS8pYq=0wesMOfL6TkeC7QGAZ8pWwOcnkhkJqWfA@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUFxo8P8wxh8jX3019yPQOuwQ0eVdsFmRXsbWdWinnc5oA@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBOTKpmFC34waqZ4kA-P8t+E6yY9gX1JFCHhsBH0+CF-Qw@mail.gmail.com> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C30BC0F@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAD5OKxtKLMf_d=8GSMrqfNhDHPe9MFP2ZTKzZHFn9CyMr-gSVQ@mail.gmail.com> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C30C833@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAD5OKxvGfkgRp6tXwbOu_kVteHiBBqsyR5ixH18FMKjCNGO8VQ@mail.gmail.com> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C30CD1E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <BLU401-EAS386F88B3FE140492B39B59693610@phx.gbl> <AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A484213E41E7@TK5EX14MBXC265.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <C50FDAD5-492C-4A83-AD6D-464242FB4A05@iii.ca> <CALiegfneUj=kzDjR_E1=S-bqAajaPUE3f_A2g8oGriFyPhamPA@mail.gmail.com> <3C837643-5DB1-4192-8DA3-6D999E867E77@iii.ca>
In-Reply-To: <3C837643-5DB1-4192-8DA3-6D999E867E77@iii.ca>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070004090408090607010201"
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk9278mpEp65BAPGgCLYuskFdAnnAqL6w/t6fPjNhKdwqBS5uoPYe/8hxyqRS2KW7MOmk98
Cc: "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, "public-webrtc@w3.org" <public-webrtc@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' opinions of the current WebRTC API and SDP as a control surface
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 03:17:58 -0000
Is WebRTC exclusively targeting browser interoperability ? I'm not trying to nitpick, but this is a vital point of issue. If yes, then why do we need to carry so much legacy SDP stuff to achieve basic sending of media between browsers? Seems like an incredible designoverkill to me. It's much easier to define a minimal feature set with a wire protocol that can achieve basic media between browsers. You could define "SDP-light" and that would be sufficient. If no, then why isn't JavaScript the entity generating the SDPs rather than the browser binaries? If the browsers aren't the end-all-be-all for interoperability, then all those SDPs have work not just between browsers, but untold numbers of SIP devices, servers, gateways, relays, desktop applications and mobile devices. Either all of those devices have to become equally capable of handling every WebRTC SDP produced from every browser, every version, working around every format difference, as every other device on the planet -- or -- we'll have to extract the SDP information using JS libraries and signal a format strictly compatible to our network environment. Personally, I think most will choose the latter in practice. Even SIP people using SDP will end up extracting the browser's SDP and recreate their own SDP instead. Given how tough it is for two browser vendors (who even have access to each other's source code) to get this SDP negotiation right, I'm extremely concerned about an entire planet of devices getting this stuff right. The trouble isn't that SDP isn't expressive enough or it's too ugly a format, it's that it's too expressive (okay, and it's ugly too). The trouble isn't that it's easy to negotiate O/A only for simple cases, it's that when we end up having to signal this stuff in "our own way", we'll be fighting with an O/A state negotiation machine instead of controlling the RTP engine directly with knobs and dials. As a developer, I want: 1) to control what the RTP engine does on the wire (to ensure compatibility between devices); 2) strict, well defined, easy-to-understand API contracts that do not change, and are only extended in well defined ways; 3) knobs and dials to control the exposed capabilities, and _not_ a negotiation machine to not fight where I can only indirectly "do what I want"; 4) predictable outputs, i.e. not having random extensions or odd differences in the middle some blob format show up from version-to-version, and from browser-to-browser; I do not believe we can address these by tweaking the SDP format, or defining SDP better, or making wrappers for SDP. The problem is fundamentally SDP O/A as the mandated. -Robin > Cullen Jennings <mailto:fluffy@iii.ca> > 19 July, 2013 9:24 PM > > > Well lets prioritize fixing them. Which ones are causing > interoperability problems between browsers?
- [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' opini… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Binod
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Jim Barnett
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Jim Barnett
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application Dev… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Summary… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo